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"It is a happy talent to know how to play."

"Creepy" Isn't About Attractiveness. It's About Reciprocity.

9/19/2019

24 Comments

 
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There's been some recent confusion about a post I wrote last fall. In What Men Don't Understand When They Complain, "It's Only Creepy If The Guy Isn't Hot," I made the very accurate and straightforward statement that flirting is only fun when it's reciprocated. Yes, I acknowledged, attractiveness does affect the likelihood of your flirting being reciprocated, and that sucks for people who are not attractive. 

But continuing to hit on someone who isn't interested is a good way to be labeled creepy, and there are better ways to actually find love. 

Also worth noting:

Yes, some women are superficial and shallow and cruel.

AND. Some guys are creeps and perverts. They shout sexual comments at 12-year-olds who are just trying to walk to school. They make women feel unsafe in professional and social situations.

But obviously not all men are perverts, and not all women are superficial, and I can't even imagine how sad it would be to live feeling so weirdly victimized all the time. It's not a healthy mindset, and there are steps you can take to change it. (Maybe start with Byron Katie or Michael Bennett... or even just a good therapist.)

Here's another thought: if it's so easy for you to believe that ALL women are a certain way... maybe that's the reason you're struggling in the relationship department. Women are individuals, and treating them as such is kind of important if you want them to like you.

Another consideration, which didn't even occur to me before because this behavior/lifestyle is just so foreign to me, but...

In my original article, I assumed that people were looking for dating and relationships, not random hookups. But then someone commented with a link to this bizarre story about a dude who made a fake, hot Tinder profile, then sent gross, sexual messages to a bunch of women...

And some responded positively. (Though, of course, we have NO idea how many messages he had to send to get enough screenshots for his article. We also have no indication that the women who responded positively were, themselves, attractive, intelligent, or in any way desirable... though I have my hypotheses.)
​
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As I told the commenter, "Girls who respond positively to disgusting messages like that are so far beyond relatable to me that their responses literally made me gag." (They're allowed to do what they want; I'm allowed to think it's gross.) I can't really comment on that, except to say:

1. If all someone wants is to hook up with a hot guy, of course they're going to reject unattractive guys. Sure, that sucks for unattractive guys, but no one has any right to tell anyone else who to have sex with.

2. I think part of the reason men who are looking for love run into trouble is that they turn to books and websites that basically teach them how to use creepy tactics ("violating" the girl's personal space; backing her into a corner so she can't pull away when you try to kiss her; forcing yourself into her apartment after you walk her home, even though she already said goodnight) that may increase your chances of coercing kisses or sex out of a girl...

But after that, she will never want to see you again because you were creepy and disrespectful to her.

If you're only looking for a hookup, these "tactics" might work for you... but they might also land you in jail or looking for new employment. (See also:If You Had to Hold Her Head in Place and Force Your Faces Together, It Wasn't a Kiss.)

If you're looking for a meaningful or lasting relationship, this is not the way to get it.

But that's a whole other thing.

The thing that I want to reiterate now, a year later, is:

In order to be fun and not creepy, FLIRTING HAS TO BE MUTUAL.

Flirting is fun. But only when advances are thrilling, meaningful, or desired. Flirting, like kissing, sex, and... I dunno, tandem skydiving?... is only fun when both people are into it. 

Unwanted sexual advances are gross. 

Unfairly, if you're attractive, advances are more likely to be mutual. If you're unattractive, your advances are less likely to be mutual if all the girl knows about you is how attractive you are.

Which is why, rather than diving into some creepy, one-size-fits-all pickup line... probably you should skip the pickup line and... establish common ground that isn't "you are sexually attractive to me."

For example: man sees woman reading book. Man interrupts woman's reading. Should he say:

A. "Hi! Hi! Excuse me! I just have to say, I see a whole, amazing world of intelligence and wonder in your eyes!" (Real thing someone actually said to me last week)

B. "Excuse me -- you're reading The Miracle? I read that before my trip to Singapore last year and it just... It almost​ made some of the authoritarian choices made by Asian governments seem justified. Super fascinating!
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The first guy is creepy. He felt entitled to interrupt me when I'm clearly in the middle of something, and he doesn't even have anything to say except, "Yo, you're hot." The fact that he would interrupt what I was doing to tell me of his sexual urges makes me wonder how much my agency, goals, interests, and boundaries matter to him.

Not to mention: he literally has nothing to add to the conversation. 

The second guy and I have the shared experience of both having read this book... and, since he went to Singapore after reading the book, he might even have something interesting to add or debate me on. ("I saw the factory he talked about -- remember, the one that they always fired up whenever there were foreign investors in town? -- and I was really surprised to see ___.") He hasn't interrupted me to comment on my body. He wants to talk about ideas and interests. 

And, sure. There is a small chance that if Guy A is EXTREMELY attractive, or if we have a magical, instant connection, the "identical behavior" of complimenting a strange woman's appearance might not be seen as quite so creepy...

But in the comments, the recurring complaint is that "identical behaviors" are seen as creepy only when the guy isn't hot.

The problem with thinking about it this way is...

An interaction is bidirectional. 

Thinking of "identical behaviors" of an attractive and unattractive man kind of removes the woman entirely from the story...

Which...

​May be a reason you have trouble with women? Remember:

In order to be fun and not creepy, FLIRTING HAS TO BE MUTUAL.

Flirting shouldn't be a thing one of you does. It should be a thing both of you are doing. Otherwise, it is creepy. 

Perhaps Guy A sees an amazing world of wonder and intelligence in my eyes. I look up at him, and there is an instant, inexplicable connection. I reply, "Thanks, and that is an incredible ocean in your chin." Three hours later, we're still talking.

Perhaps Guy B announces he has read the same book as me, and I say, "Oh, cool," look back to my book, and turn the page -- and he pulls up a chair and keeps talking. Creeeeeeeepy. (Fun fact: That we've read the same book does NOT mean that I "owe" you a conversation.)

"Identical behavior" doesn't mean shit in different interactions with different people who are responding in different ways.

The determining factor is always going to be reciprocity. 

Appearance can affect whether women reciprocate. So can your social skills. Which is why, if people think you're creepy, you should order a copy of 
The Charisma Myth: How Anyone Can Master the Art and Science of Personal Magnetism. Immediately.
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A few other questions that came up in the comments: 

Yeah, but some girls are MEAN!

All else equal, I believe it's better to be polite, kind, and compassionate than it is to be rude. I actually read a really amazing book, F You Very Much: Understanding the Culture of Rudeness - and What We Can Do About It, which made me literally laugh out loud several times...

And it also highlighted some of the consequences of rudeness -- rudeness can literally cost lives. 

However, again, I don't owe you a conversation just because you interrupted me. In fact, women's fear of "being rude" can also get them killed.

Not to mention the whole fundamental attribution error, or the tendency to attribute our own behavior to our situation, and other people's behavior to their disposition. If I have time and energy, I might talk to you. If I'm in a hurry, tired, or having a bad day, I have every right to brush you off. 

The attitude that I owe you something... is creepy.

"Uncomfortable" and  "creepy" are different things.

I agree! Talking to someone with bad breath is uncomfortable. It's not fair to call him "creepy" just because of his bad breath...

HOWEVER.

If I took a step back from you because your breath was disgusting, then you took a step toward me, so I took another step back, so you took another step forward, THAT would be creepy. 

My boundaries were ignored. My space was violated. Whether you did it on purpose or you just didn't notice you were making me uncomfortable, it was still creepy. 

Another example:

For me, holding hands is really intimate. I feel very uncomfortable when someone I don't deeply care for tries to hold my hand.

Even so, if you try to hold my hand once and I take it away, I won't call you creepy.

HOWEVER. 

If I pull my hand away from you and you try to hold it again a few seconds later, THAT is creepy. I will think you are gross, and I will never talk to you again.

So don't go home all joyful, thinking you made some romantic progress because you got me to hold hands with you. In reality, you're going to text me that you had a wonderful evening. I'm going to completely ghost on you and never explain why.

(Then, probably, you're going to mistakenly believe that I ghosted because you were "too available" or "desperate." WRONG! See also: ​It's Not That Girls Don't Like Guys Who Are "Desperate" or "Too Available." It's That You Ignored Her Boundaries.)
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Another complaint that comes up in the comments is:

Oh, but women aren't oppressed anymore. MEN are the oppressed ones, and they have it SO MUCH WORSE than women!!!!!

Last night, I woke up at 3am thinking about the horrors of WWI.

Have you ever had trench foot? Ever been woken up by hoards of rats who were literally obese from eating all your dead friends? Lost multiple brothers over some stupid diplomatic crisis? Had a limb blown off? Rotted both inside and outside after being exposed to mustard gas?

Then please don't fucking whine at me about how hard it is to be a man. 

If the biggest thing you have to worry about is that a woman at a bar might reject you, you have it pretty good. 

Similarly, have you ever had to worry about accidentally getting pregnant? Had debilitating cramps? Been harassed in the streets? Had to worry about being raped or sexually assaulted? Had to make major career sacrifices in order to grow a human inside of you, then have it rip you apart inside and put you at risk of peeing or pooping yourself every time you laugh for the rest of your life? Had to return to work basically in a huge diaper because of all the bleeding you're still experiencing because you just delivered a baby a few days ago? Been constantly interrupted and treated like a secretary at work? Had adverse side effects after taking a medication that was supposed to be safe, because the drug had only actually been tested on men?

No?

It seriously blows my mind when men (manchildren?) think they have it tougher than women, and that women are some sort of "privileged class." But let me tell you: if this is truly how you feel about the world, it's highly likely that the reason women don't like you is your persecution complex and lack of empathy. 

Whining and pity parties are not very sexy.

On a related note:

But women aren't expected to approach men or make the first move! What a wonderful privilege! 

Boy. Let's get one thing straight:

Hot women have the "privilege" (which is just as likely to be an annoyance) of being approached by men and not having to make the first move.

Average and unattractive women...

Are often invisible. 

As demonstrated by the fact that you, sir, seem blissfully unaware of their existence. If you really think that ALL women are CONSTANTLY approached by men...

I don't even know what to tell you. 

Do you seriously think that average or unattractive men have it worse than average or unattractive women? I mean, I guess that because men are typically larger and stronger than women, men approached by average or unattractive women are unlikely to perceive them as threatening or creepy. 

That doesn't mean they're any less likely to be mocked, led on, or cruelly rejected.

It's also true that women get hit on way more than men.

"Eva! A girl asked for my number!" an attractive guy friend of mine exclaimed the other day when we met up for lunch.

For him, this is such an unusual thing... that it's not annoying. It's not scary. It's not uncomfortable. Even if he's not interested in the girl, which he wasn't -- he doesn't have to worry she's going to assault or murder him for rejecting her. 

The same friend sometimes retells the story of the older French woman who walked up to him in a bar in Paris and grabbed his dick.

Again -- he tells the story with a goofy grin, because being touched unwantedly has happened to him literally once. In public. Through the clothes. By someone he knew could never physically overpower him. 
​
As I wrote in a comment on the previous post, I hate using the phrase "power dynamics," because SJWs have overused this word to the point that it's become meaningless jargon...

But you would have to be a real creep if, as a man, you couldn't comprehend why a woman might feel uncomfortable in a subway or walking down the street or even going on a date with someone she doesn't know, who is significantly stronger, bigger, and faster than she is.

(But I'll bet you don't think transwomen don't belong in women's sports -- which, scientifically, you're right, and I agree with you. But at least be consistent. If you don't think male-bodied people belong in women's sports, then why do you think women have no reason to fear men, even just a little?)

Transgender athletes are DESTROYING women’s sports | RT Topics pic.twitter.com/xPIqoziybE

— RT (@RT_com) September 19, 2019

I'm sure some of you "object to my tone," but I respect you too much for euphemisms and sugarcoating. If you're looking for a circle jerk, you've come to the wrong place. 

You're a big boy, and I know you can handle the truth.

And the truth is...

Life isn't fair.

Flirting is only fun when it's reciprocated.

It's more likely to be reciprocated if you're hot.

But "creepy" is about your behavior, not you appearance. 

Hot guys can be creepy.

Some girls are superficial. Some girls are mean.

Life is hard for everyone.

If you're not hot, you probably need to get to know someone a little better before hitting on her. That way, she knows how smart and funny and talented you are, and not just what you look like.

If you pay attention to her boundaries and behaviors, you'll have a lot more luck in dating and will be way less likely to be seen as creepy. 

​Because flirting is only fun when it is reciprocated. 
24 Comments
Anonymous
9/30/2019 04:41:10 pm

"Average and unattractive women...

Are often invisible."

Regardless of their attractiveness, or lack thereof, they still have the privilege of not being expected by society at large to be the ones who approach first and passing the blame of not being approached on to men and labeling such men as "shallow."

A novel concept: average and unattractive women can share in the burden of dating by approaching first and testing the extent and actuality of their, as you call it, "invisibilty."

Surely you would agree with this.

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Eva Glasrud link
10/2/2019 08:37:40 pm

I more than agree with it. I think that invisible women are forced to "approach" men, whether in real life or online. Otherwise... they're just invisible.

There's no reason not to make the first move, regardless of gender. For me, it's hard to see approaching other people as a "burden." I enjoy doing it -- it's fun!

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Anonymous
10/3/2019 01:18:25 pm

"I think that invisible women are forced to 'approach' men, whether in real life or online."

Yes, but are they creep shamed and stigmatized in the same way that men are for doing so on the first attempt, if the person they are approaching does not approve of her appearance and takes offense that she (being unattractive) would dare think it possible that he would reciprocate interest? And would they be as likely to suffer the same consequences as the man in the example that laughing_frog gave?

Of course the answer to both questions is an emphatic, incontrovertable "no," whether you realize it or not. That is what I am talking about when I say "privilege."

"There's no reason not to make the first move, regardless of gender."

You listed several reasons not to: inappropriate setting (however benign it may be), uncertainty of reciprocity, the lack of "hotness" of the approacher. You're oblivious to how much you contradict yourself with each statement.

"For me, it's hard to see approaching other people as a 'burden.'"

Could it be because you're not considered conventionally unattractive to the average person and that you would not suffer the burden of being creep shamed for making the first approach like a typical unattractive person would? Again, you're looking at this issue through one lense.

Eva Glasrud link
10/7/2019 10:36:23 am

Different people are stigmatized for different things. Are men slut shamed? Are they called "bitches" just for asserting their opinions or bodily autonomy? If they're in a bad mood, do people assume they're just "hormonal," instead of assuming they have a legitimate reason to be angry?

Life isn't fair for anyone. Life is hard for everyone. It would definitely suck if a man who did nothing inappropriate were called creepy just for being ugly, but I'm not convinced this is a problem that's as prevalent as you're implying.

If people routinely find a guy creepy, chances are he's doing something creepy. Either he is right and EVERYONE ELSE is wrong, or everyone else is right and HE is wrong.

Other things:

> " ...if the person they are approaching does not approve of her appearance and takes offense that she (being unattractive) would dare think it possible that he would reciprocate interest? "

As I've said before... why WOULD the person reciprocate interest? The way you approach someone matters. If you're walking up to them and saying, "Oh, I see a world of wonder and beauty in your eyes," that's creepy. I will not reciprocate your interest, because that is just weird. "Oh, I've rad that book and here's an interesting insight," tells me something about you other than that you're sexually attracted to my appearance, and gives me the chance to find something to appreciate and reciprocate.

> ""There's no reason not to make the first move, regardless of gender." You listed several reasons not to: inappropriate setting (however benign it may be), uncertainty of reciprocity, the lack of 'hotness' of the approacher."

Err. I thought the assumption was clear, but okay. ASSUMING THE SETTING IS APPROPRIATE, there's no reason not to approach someone. Lack of hotness is a dumb reason not to approach someone -- approach if you're respectful, attentive, and have something to say other than, "Wow what a world of wonder I see in your eyes," or, "Wow, you're so pretty." I can only speak for myself and the women I'm friends with, but we care SO much more how smart and talented and interesting someone is than how hot he is. Hot guys are a dime a dozen.

> "You're not considered conventionally unattractive to the average person and that you would not suffer the burden of being creep shamed for making the first approach like a typical unattractive person would?"

It's hard for me to relate to this -- not because I am so attractive, which obviously helps, but because I don't see talking to people as a burden. Whether I'm interested in potential romance or just making conversation, I enjoy conversations with others. It's not a burden to me. I see people as fascinating individuals who know things I don't. Perhaps viewing people this way instead of potential sexmates... makes it more fun to talk to me?

I would REALLY love to see some actual data on this, because I can't think of a single time I've ever thought someone was "creepy" JUST because he was ugly. Ever. Behavior, yes. But appearance? I feel like you're talking about either/both a persecution complex or/and a maladaptive behavior, which is why I'm proposing actionable solutions and ways to not be seen as creepy.

Reframing one's mindset, from "pity party for a helpless victim" to "taking accountability and looking for ways to self-improve" can make a big difference in how women see a guy and whether they find him attractive. Women like men who are confident -- not so much in their looks, but in their ability to control their actions and the world around them. A man who says, "Life is SO UNFAIR, I'm a victim," is not a man I'd necessarily think would be able to do things like provide and protect. From an evolutionary perspective, that is WAY more important than what you look like. Who cares how hot you are if I'm dead?

Another thing worth developing is compassion. If you can't find it in your heart of hearts to understand why women would be sensitive to creepy behaviors, and you need to go out of your way to make sure women you're interacting with feel safe and comfortable, then you're demonstrating a clear lack of compassion and perspective-taking ability. Know who else lacks compassion and perspective-taking abilities? Sociopaths. Psychopaths. Dangerous criminals. Rapists. Predators. If you're some guy I don't know well, and you are showing either ignorance or disrespect for my comfort and boundaries... you're someone I'm going to get away from as fast as I can, someone I'll never talk to again, and someone I'll warn my friends about. Is that "unfair" because of the "creep stigma"? No. You just shouldn't act that way.

That said, of course I don't expect men to be perfect mind readers, and, as I've said before, it's important for women to learn how to explicitly tell men what they are and aren't comfortable with. One thing I hated about the Aziz Ansari story was that the girl was like, "I don't know if he didn't notice my nonverbal cues, or if he chos

laughing_frog
10/2/2019 11:40:04 am

"But "creepy" is about your behavior, not your appearance. "
--Eva

That's just not true in practice. There are plenty of women out there who will call unattractive men creepy just for talking to them, even if nothing sexual is meant. So it has a lot to do with appearance for a good deal of women. Let me spell it out. An unattractive man who asks women out once and respects her rejection will be called creepy relatively often.

I remember I was talking to a female colleague who told me one of our male coworkers was basically a rapist because she got bad vibes from him. He had made no move on her but she singled him out. For context he was fat and short and she was very attractive.

I advise men to simply avoid women at work altogether. Don't mentor them, don't help them, just avoid them. Most women are good people but a large minority of them are not. Better safe than sorry.

And yes Eva men are the oppressed ones in society today as anyone can see:
1) Media and Academia lie about men all the time, for example they falsely claim 1 in 4 women are raped to spread hatred against men
2) women face no consequences for false accusation of rape or sexual harassment
3) divorce laws are unfair to men.

To add insult to injury women, and I am generalizing here, cry sexism as they lash out at men with the full power of the state, the media, and academia behind them.

Reply
Eva Glasrud link
10/2/2019 09:12:49 pm

"That's just not true in practice. There are plenty of women out there who will call unattractive men creepy just for talking to them, even if nothing sexual is meant. So it has a lot to do with appearance for a good deal of women. Let me spell it out. An unattractive man who asks women out once and respects her rejection will be called creepy relatively often."

Is this... based on something? Like an actual study? Or just, like, random tweets from "plenty of" random people on the internet? Because it's FAR from any experience I've ever had. And for me, personally, if some short or unattractive guy approaches me with something interesting to say, I'm impressed. It takes a confident man to do that to a girl who is significantly taller and/or more attractive than he is.

A few possibilities come to mind:

1. You could be overgeneralizing. Like, yesterday, I was driving, and this guy followed me for 20 minutes, pulling up to my driver and passenger side windows and STARING at me like a weird creep, whether I sped up or slowed down or changed lanes. He obviously had either self-esteem or mental problems, and/or is some kind of sexual predator. Am I willing to generalize this behavior to all men? No. That would be a really sad and terrible way to live.

Byron Katie advises people who feel victimized to ask themselves, "Is it true?" and, "Are you sure?" When you feel like it's SO SUPER COMMON for women to call men a name because they're not attractive... I think that's a good time to ask yourself, "Is it true?" and, "Are you sure?" (Read more: https://amzn.to/2pt6cqB)

2. You could be creepy without realizing it. If people are ACTUALLY calling you creepy and you are SURE it is true... it is probably because you are being creepy without realizing it. Maybe you consistently stand too close to people. Maybe you invade their personal space. Maybe you ask questions that make people feel uncomfortable. Maybe you have bad hygiene. Maybe your clothes make you look like a predator. Maybe instead of saying interesting things and starting worthwhile conversations, you're saying weird stuff, like, "When I look into your eyes, I see a whole world of intelligence and beauty and wonder," to some stranger you don't even know.

It takes a confident man to approach a woman who is taller or more attractive than he is... but it also takes a confident man to think through his behaviors and interactions and think about things he might have done that someone else might have perceived as "creepy," even if it wasn't meant that way.

3. Maybe you hang out with shitty people. My friends hardly ever use the word creepy, and when they do, it is always about a behavior.

4. Maybe you're asking people out in a non-creepy way, but the context makes it creepy. For example, a coworker. It is EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY difficult to ask out a coworker in a way that isn't creepy. Women deserve to be able to go to work without having to feel weird and sexualized because dudes keep asking her out -- even if each only asks her once.

5. You're hitting on people instead of talking to them.

If you approach me with some kind of obvious pickup line or generic compliment, I'm going to assume that a) you're unintelligent, because is that really all you have to say? and b) you're only interested in sex, because you don't even know me, so why are you saying that?

6. Something else? There are endless permutations and hypotheticals.

"I remember I was talking to a female colleague who told me one of our male coworkers was basically a rapist because she got bad vibes from him."

Bad vibes is different from ugly. Unless they're lying, people say what they mean, and not more, and not less. If she thought he was ugly, she would have said, "That make coworker is ugly." It's more honest and WAY fewer syllables than, "I got a really bad vibe from him."

People get vibes and feelings about each other. For me, it's more likely to be positive ("There was just something about him!" "I could tell by looking at his face!" "It felt like I already knew him!") than negative (I can't even think of a recent example... but I'm sure it's happened.)

I think everyone should trust their gut. If you have a bad feeling about a woman, end the conversation before she steals your wallet or manipulates you into buying her a motorcycle. If you have bad feelings about a man, end the conversation before he rapes you. Trust your gut. Be safe. I have no problem with this. A false accusation is one thing, but saying, "I got a bad vibe, I don't like him," is completely different.

"I advise men to simply avoid women at work altogether."

Again... if people are calling you creepy, it's worth examining your interpersonal behaviors and personal beliefs to see if there is a reason people feel that way. And also, yes. Never hit on or ask out women you work with.

"1) Media and Academia lie about men all the time, for example they falsely claim 1 in 4 women are raped to spread hatred against men
2) wome

Reply
Justin
12/10/2019 10:27:18 am

Wow, just read this comment.

laughing_frog, you are one of the problems with society today. I'm a man and when I hear men talk like you are here I am disturbed. It's the talk of some unconfident sexist who blames women for his problems.

"I advise men to simply avoid women at work altogether. Don't mentor them, don't help them, just avoid them. Most women are good people but a large minority of them are not. Better safe than sorry."

You know one of the reason women don't advance as far in their careers is lack of mentorship? The idea that you cannot control yourself not to hit on a coworker or that somehow you will be "falsely" accused of something is pretty absurd to me. Those cases are so freaking rare. If you are accused of something most likely you did something. I've mentored plenty of women and have never had a problem. As long as you treat them as a coworker, with respect, and not as a sexual object or otherwise differently because of their gender and your sexist biases you shouldn't have a problem. Men who refuse to mentor women because of such claims make me sick and angry. You are literally one of the reasons women have troubles advancing in their careers.

Also, really, you think men are oppressed today. LOL LOL LOL LOL. Look at the freaking data man, don't spend too much time on reddit and 4chan forums with idiots who live in a basement and have no female friends. Things have gotten a lot better for women, and social justice warriors DEFINITELY take things too far with the whole oppression and victimization stuff, but men still have advantages in the world and there is a mountain of evidence to back this up. Look at what percent of CEOs and other executives are men vs women for example.

Also, when you say "academia" like a slur, I hear you don't like to listen to evidence but would rather pick facts selectively to back up your confirmation bias. Yes there are some really out there parts of academia like gender studies that focus on "lived experiences" etc (ie anecdote) but the majority of academia just focuses on getting data and interpreting what that data says. I get so sick and tired of people assuming because data doesn't agree with their preconceived ideas (ie evidence against their bias) it is somehow not worth listening too. Facts are facts, whether you choose to bury your head in the sand or not.

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Some Guy
5/25/2021 08:59:23 am

Those cases are so freaking rare. If you are accused of something most likely you did something.
--Justin

You just proved laughing_frog's point. Why should I mentor women if most people in academia believe an accusation is the same as being guilty?

Hypothetically Justin if you were falsely accused would you resign and go away or would you demand the due process, charity, and understanding you deny other men?

Chris
1/12/2022 06:47:55 am

“ If you are accused of something most likely you did something.”

There is so much wrong with this statement I just do not know where to start. I hope you are never called for jury service. Happily we have a Justice system developed over hundreds of years that recognises that things are never as black and white as they may appear to you. Maybe you feel that we should do away with the judicial process?

What about abusers that gaslight their victims into believing that they are at fault? Should we just accept the opinion of the abuser? How do we know that accusations are made in good faith? How do you know that it is rare for someone to be accused of something they did not do?

John
10/19/2019 07:07:32 am

The first things to look for before you flirt is to pay attention to her body language and what she's saying, if she seems closed off then don't bother. The rule of thumb to follow on a date is if she wasn't touching you or keeping eye contact, then don't bother going for the kiss. The bottom line is, never listen to other people or try to use the pua nonsense instead pay attention to what's going on around you and you'll do much better.

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Yui Sensei
4/23/2021 12:56:46 am

ooooo

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Danny
6/14/2021 01:59:08 pm

It's really easy to sit back and judge people when you don't know anything about them, much less the kind of things they are struggling with in life.

I'm 30, I am diagnosed with Asperger's, and I have never had a girlfriend in my life and that makes me sad. I suck at socializing, I have been very clumsy with women in the past, and my confidence couldn't be any lower than it is.

I get why women may have perceived me as "creepy" and undesirable in the past, but I never meant to be those things. In fact I have always tried very hard to improve and be a better man. I'm always striving to be more attractive and socially calibrated. I have made progress, but apparently not enough because women still treat me poorly and avoid me.

Having said all that, women don't help the situation. You talk about reciprocity and flirting with people who are reciprocating. You make it sound so easy! I have studied women's body language and signs of interest for years and I still can't read women. Most of the ways women "flirt" are vague and leave them with the benefit of plausible deniability. They can flirt as much as they want and say they were just being friendly and it's the guy's fault for misreading the signals.

I'll give you an example. I was at a friend's wedding two years ago and I saw a pretty blonde woman staring at me from across the venue. This was a woman I had met through my friendship with the groom. Anyway, she intercepted me on my way to the open bar and started a conversation with me.

She was making strong eye contact and was breaking the touch barrier (touching my arm). So I thought she was interested in me and asked her to dance. She made a sour face and immediately walked away like I did or said something wrong by asking her to dance. You can oversimplify things all you want, but this shit is very complicated and nuanced. What's more of a green light than a woman approaching me and breaking the touch barrier? She still judged me as a creep even though she was the one who put herself on my radar by approaching me. I only invited her to dance and she acted ugly and rude.

Reply
Some guy
8/9/2021 02:52:41 pm

Unfortunately she most likely got put up to it by one of your friends and she couldn't go through with it or maybe she was just looking for validation or an ego boost. Women do this crap all the time. We think we're on easy street and then BAM! It kind of reminds me of playing Mario Kart in 2 player split screen mode back in the day. We think we're in first place and the whole time we were looking at the wrong screen and all we were doing all this time was crashing into the wall lol.

Reply
Eva Glasrud link
8/9/2021 03:34:01 pm

I doubt that she was "put up to it." I've never heard of that happening -- women want their friends to have a good time, not talk to dudes they don't like out of obligation!

Similarly, I doubt she was looking for validation or an ego boost. OP described her as very pretty -- if that's the case, I don't think she needs a random guy at a wedding to ask her to dance to know she's pretty.

>> "Women do this crap all the time."

By which you mean... initiate a conversation with a man and then not have sex with them? Yeah. We do. Turns out, we're not weird sex machines that just have sex with every man we talk to. Sometimes, we talk to people because we want to, you know, talk to people.

>> "We think we're on Easy Street and then BAM."

If that's what you want -- some kind of "easy street" sure deal -- hire an escort. Women have no obligation to sleep with you, just because they started a conversation with you or touched your arm.

The Mario Kart analogy is a good one. I think this is where a LOT of well-meaning guys run into trouble. They read stuff on the internet about "touch barriers" and "The Game" and strategies to pick up women. A lot of the time, this advice is useful NOT for getting to know a woman or make her interested in you, but instead to manipulate her and the situation so that you get physical contact from the woman, whether she's into it or not. So then you end up getting a (forced) goodnight kiss, and you go home thinking, "YES! Everything went SO well and she LIKES me!" But in reality, she's never going to talk to you again because she feels like you kiss raped her. But most women aren't going to tell you, "BTW, the reason I never want to see you again is because you kiss raped me." So the guy is left with his head spinning, wondering how you could have gone on such a great date where she kissed you but then ghosted, and the girl is left warning all her friends that you're creepy and sexually aggressive.

It's JUST like looking at the wrong screen in Mario Kart.

Eva Glasrud link
8/9/2021 03:24:28 pm

It's impossible to know just from this story what happened. Maybe she didn't like dancing. Maybe she did like dancing, but she didn't like the music. Maybe she assumed that by "dance," you meant "rub my erect penis against your ass." Maybe you asked her to dance in a way that was creepy, like staring at her cleavage instead of her face or leaning in way too close or something. From what you've said, it's just impossible to know what happened.

For me, I tend to find it unattractive when men use phrases like "touch barrier," because it implies that they see me as some sex algorithm instead of a person. Every human action has many possible meanings. Smiling MIGHT mean she's interested. Or it might mean she's uncomfortable, or that she's appeasing, or that she's just being polite. Touching your arm MIGHT mean she's interested. Or she might be trying to push you back a step because you're standing too close. Or she might be trying to create a pause in the conversation so she can say something, like, "I need to go talk to someone," or, "Here's my opinion on the subject." Women are PEOPLE, not algorithms. So it's really impossible to say if you were getting a "green light" or not. Maybe you were, but then you blew it somehow in the way you asked her to dance. Or maybe one of the many other reasons I already gave.

Sorry you're struggling with this stuff. You're right -- it's not easy for ANYONE.

Reply
Some Guy
8/9/2021 03:57:11 pm

It's not about sex at all. It's about making a connection with someone. I wouldn't want some one that's that easy and I would not feel right manipulating someone into sleeping with me. Sorry if I implied that in the wrong way. What I mean "by doing this crap all the time" is they seem genuinely interested at first and everything seems to be going well and what I mean by " easy street" is I finally found someone I could hold a conversation with and possibly have a companion to possibly build with. Maybe they might be interested at first and then they see someone they like better or maybe we unknowingly do something they didn't like etc. but who knows. It's all trial and error

Chris
1/12/2022 08:53:46 am

Hi Danny, the issue with women breaking the “touch barrier” is they do tend to be more touchy feely than men. They are being friendly and would equally be breaking the touch barrier with everyone, men and women. I know some men that do this too and it can seem odd if you are not used to it but they are just displaying friendliness. Breaking the touch barrier can mean they are comfortable around you it definitely does not guarantee a romantic interest and should not be seen as such- unless she is touching areas that are a little bit more intimate than the social norm:).

Reply
eric n. adams
1/14/2022 02:29:23 am

while flirting isonly fun when it's reciprocated why would this fact exclude you from liking a guy because he is so attractive since we realise now that attractiveness CAN lead to reciprocitation there is some truth to the clichee because unattractiveness can in fact inhibit reciprocitation.

you can realise now from that experience that making mental gymnastics won't change mentally damaging effects of halo effects at all.

Reply
Chris Anton
1/29/2022 11:54:25 pm

So the only way for a man to have lived hard is if he has suffered the hardships of war?
That's like saying a woman doesn't know true hardship unless she's been gangraped and she shouldn't complain too much because she's got it pretty damn good for that fact.

Similarly, have you ever had to worry about being falsely accused of raping someone? Having to fear vigilante justice because people jump to conclusions about you?
Had to make great personal sacrifice because you were the only income for the family. Having your feelings invalidated because you're a man so you should just suck it up? Not being able to defend yourself because hitting a woman is wrong?

If the biggest thing you have to worry about is that a man might interrupt your reading to give you a compliment, you have it pretty good.

I could go on and respond to each and every argument you came up with but I won't do that because I hardly believe it would do any good anyway. My advice to you is to stop being so dense and challenge your own views from time to time. It would be healthy for you.

Reply
Eva Glasrud link
1/30/2022 09:39:34 am

No one said that. Don't be crazy.

Which, I suppose, is easier said than done when it comes to someone who just compared going to war with being rejected by a woman at a bar.

I don't have to worry about being falsely accused of raping someone because if the consent isn't verbal and enthusiastic, I don't do things to other people's bodies. It's actually REALLY easy not to get accused of raping someone.

You should try it.

Reply
Paul
2/2/2022 11:04:08 am

"Flirting is only fun when it's reciprocated". OK - totally accepted. In fact, I'd go further and say that 'flirting is only acceptable when it's reciprocated'. Unfortunately, either way - for a guy like me for whom any sort of flirting (including just getting to know a woman socially via shared activities, etc.) would not be reciprocated (and as such unacceptable) - so it's not worth trying. The only [artificial, totally morally gross] sexual experience I can ever have is porn - which I try to avoid. But what choice do I have? I'm only human (as everyone else is) and I have natural physical desires. Like anyone else too, I'm not entitled to anything or anyone, and as such, since no woman could ever be interested in me, I feel I have no choice but to leave all women alone.

Reply
Bruce
2/16/2022 08:01:44 am

I am not lonely most of the time, but have never asked any woman out in my life – ever – because no matter what I do, no matter how I get to know her ‘socially’ (for want of a better term), I am - and always will be unattractive on a romantic/sexual level. It’s easy to genetically advise men to go after what they want, and to tell unattractive men that they need to create attraction in other ways than flirting. The fact is however, for unattractive men, there is a line which just cannot be crossed, no matter how comfortable a woman gets with him.

Added to this, it is also true that as long as he is not overtly offensive, most women will let (withhold judgment on?) a conventionally attractive man say/do things they would be immediately offended by if an unattractive guy did them. I’m not blaming women for this - nobody can help who they’re attracted to.

The long and short of this is that the only option for unattractive guys like me is *not* to go for what we want when it comes to women. For me, there is no way to become sexually attractive to women. I don’t need anyone to make my life whole, but I would love to have a woman who desires me to share my life with. Being unattractive however, there is no way that will ever happen.

Reply
Anonymous
4/1/2022 07:28:30 pm

Bruce, I hope that you find someone soon. There are women who feel exactly the same way that you do.

Reply
Anonymous
4/2/2022 03:25:14 am

I doubt it, I'm 51 and if he's anything like me it only gets worse as we get older




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