FINALLY! A Definitive Way to Know Who Pays for the Date:

12/28/2015

10% of heterosexual daters believe the man should pay for everything. Another 10% want to split everything 50/50, starting with the first date. The other 80% lie somewhere in the middle. Here's how to know who should pay.

Men who enjoy throwing little pity parties for themselves because of feminism looove complaining about how some women expect them to pay for the date. "Wah! Aren't we all supposed to be equal?"

Meanwhile, some vehement feminists are offended when a man tries to pick up the tab, while other women take it as a sign that it "wasn't a date" -- they must have just gone as friends. According to a recent survey by Janet Lever, a sociology professor at California State University, Los Angeles, 10% of heterosexual daters believe the man should pay for everything. Another 10% want to split everything 50/50, starting with the first date. Over 75% of men report that they feel guilty accepting women's money.

My recent post about sexism and the holidays somehow triggered a conversation about dating, and I figured it was time to let the world know:

There is a definite science to figuring out who "should" pay for the date. All you have to do is answer the following questions:

1) Did you initiate the date? Yes/No

If you answered Yes, that means that you should pay for the date, unless:

2) Did you explicitly state before the date how much the date would cost? Yes/No

Here's why this is the rule: I shouldn't have to check my bank account before accepting a date with you.

Say you ask me out to dinner. I say yes. You pick me up and take me to some super fancy restaurant. It's scientifically proven that money is one of the most awkward things to talk about. I've just met you -- and now I have to tell you, "You know, I actually don't make enough money to eat here."

"You know, I'm still paying off student loans, so I can't afford to eat someplace like this."

"I think I'm just going to have the... side of vegetables. And a glass of tap water."

Whereas. If you invite me to a concert, and I say yes, and then you say, "Cool! The tickets are $35 -- I'll send you a link to the EventBrite page!"... I now know exactly how much this date is going to cost. And I know that, although you initiated, you expect me to pay for my own ticket. That way, if it turns out that $35 is out of my budget, I have from now until the day of the concert to suggest something else -- a hike in the foothills, surfing, pickup basketball, or another activity that is more budget-appropriate.

Dates are WAY more fun with dogs!

So THIS is the part where some men like to whine, "Yeah, but that's not faaaaaaair! Men initiate more dates than women!"

That's true. Men do tend to initiate more dates. That's because, in our culture, men woo women. Be a man and deal with it. Because you know what else isn't fair?

The wage gap.
Sexual assault on college campuses.
Postpartum depression.
Menopause.

It sucks, but women deal with it, and/or they look for solutions. So... if you're really upset that women don't ask you out on enough dates, do something about it! Take up the feminist cause! Help blaze the way for equality! That's what you want, right?

Or, at the very least, grow the f@#% up and stop feeling sorry for yourself. If you don't have (or are too stingy to spend) $9 to buy her a burrito on a date that you initiated... maybe you should focus on developing yourself before you suck another person into your personal drama.

Besides, I've initiated plenty of dates in my time. Not nearly as many as I've accepted. But still, some. And, as I wrote in I Judge Guys Who Ask Me Out For Coffee, the dates I initiate are some of the cheapest, most outrageously fun dates ever.

Two fried doughs to go, please!

***

Want to know more? Check out These Specific Behaviors Will Make You More Charismatic, Starting RIGHT NOW, Why a Terrifying First Date is Better Than a "Nice" One, and How to Know Exactly When (and When NOT) to Kiss a Girl.

34 Comments

Robert

1/1/2016 09:27:37 pm

You know what else isn't fair? If we both get drunk and have sex and the following morning you regret it, I become a rapist and go to jail and am labeled as a sex offender for the rest of my life. Why is the male always considered the offender and the female the victim? That is sexism.

Eva Glasrud link

1/2/2016 11:37:24 am

I guess one way to make sure that doesn't happen... is not to have sex with people who are drunk. Since it is illegal to have sex with someone who can't give consent. And people who are drunk can't give consent.

I assure you -- people don't charge people with rape because they "regret" having sex with them, and I have no idea where this sick notion comes from. My guess is that it maybe comes from people who "accidentally" raped someone. Like, she kept trying to stop you, but you kept trying anyway, and eventually she felt intimidated enough to stop resisting. Which is more ambiguous than a violent struggle, but is still rape.

You might want to check out an old post about consent, The Stanford Kink Club Has the Healthiest Sex On Campus. Here's Why:

www.thehappytalent.com/blog/the-stanford-kink-club-has-the-healthiest-sex-on-campus-heres-why

Ferren

2/6/2017 12:11:24 pm

‘I assure you -- people DO charge people with rape because they "regret" having sex with them’
An International Timeline Of False Rape Allegations 1674-2015
https://www.infotextmanuscripts.org/falserape/a-false-rape-timeline-intro.html

Men are 97% of combat fatalities.
Men pay 97% of Alimony
Men make 94% of work suicides.
Men make up 93% of work fatalities.
Men make up 81% of all war deaths.
Men lose custody in 84% of divorces.
80% of all suicides are men.
77% of homicide victims are men.
89% of men will be the victim of at least one violent crime.
Men are over twice as victimised by strangers as women.
Men are 165% more likely to be convicted than women.
Men get 63% longer sentences than women for the same crime.
Court bias against men is at least 6 times bigger than racial bias.
Males are discriminated against in school and University.
Boys face vastly more corporal punishment than girls.
60-80% of the homeless are men.
Women's Cancers receive 15 times more funding than men's
At least 10% of fathers are victims of paternity fraud.
http://www.realsexism.com/

Shahab Akhavan link

4/21/2021 10:56:18 am

What does this have to do with the post she wrote?

Women Pays link

1/29/2016 11:16:55 pm

"Did you initiate the date? Yes / No. If you answered yes, then you should pay for the date."

This is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. When's the last time you've ever heard of a girl asking a guy on a date!? Rarely!

Also, who wants to go out to dinner on the first date? Of course....some chic looking for a free meal. Dinner is a horrible first date no matter who's buying. It's way too intimate, and if you don't like the person, it makes it awkward.

You're just another gold digger trying to have your cake and eat it!

1/29/2016 11:29:38 pm

Okay, so first of all:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You're cute. If I'm interested in a guy, I initiate the date. Sure, they often beat me to the punch. But I've initiated a ton, and so do a lot of women I know.

Second:

Dinner is something many people do on dates. So are concerts, which I also mentioned in this post. So are basketball, slacklining, hiking, and skateboarding, which are mentioned in I Judge Guys Who Ask Me Out to Coffee, which is mentioned in this post (http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/i-judge-guys-who-ask-me-out-for-coffee).

Third:

I'm a gold digger because I expect someone who initiated a dinner date with me to pay for the date, huh? I paid for a friend's dinner just last night, because sushi was my idea and she doesn't get paid till the end of the month. But guess what? It wasn't a big deal to me, because I'm not counting every single penny I spend and freaking out when everything doesn't get split 50-50 - unlike you, apparently.

Let me conclude by referring you back to my previous statement:

"Grow the f@#% up and stop feeling sorry for yourself. If you don't have (or are too stingy to spend) $9 to buy her a burrito on a date that you initiated... maybe you should focus on developing yourself and/or your career before you suck another person into your drama."

jackki

2/10/2016 11:00:41 pm

nice

Rogi

6/30/2016 07:12:33 am

Why mention the unfairness of the wage gap, sexual assaults, postpartum depression and menopause, as if 'fairness' is your interest?

Reading some of your articles, your writing style appears very shrill and only succeeds in making you appear to be another high strung feminist that wants all benefits to be fair and equal, but lord forbid responsibilities have to be shared equally. Oh no, the men still have to make all the moves and pay for everything, and if you were on a sinking ship you would probably also still expect to get off first too, right?

"But that's just the way it is, deal with it" is essentially your best response? There are many things in this world that are the way they are, simply because that's how it's always been. Like the wage gap, sexual assaults, and women's distant 2nd place to men for most of history. So then, why don't you just "deal with it" also?

Of course not. That'd be a ridiculous response to the genuine struggles women face, just as your response is.

Take care,

7/1/2016 04:44:25 am

Oh, honey! Do you actually know what shrill means, or are you just saying it because you've heard the other "big men" saying it?

I feel bad for you if you have such a hard time comprehending basic, common courtesy. Didn't anyone teach you any manners? If you ask someone out, regardless of your gender, you should offer to pay - or, as my article explicitly says, tell the person ahead of time that you aren't paying for them, and how much you expect the date to cost, so they can plan accordingly.

If you don't have $8 for a burrito or the balls to be direct with another person about your willingness/ability to pay $8 for them, then maybe you're not ready to date yet. Go work on your social skills (or earning potential?).

Thanks for the comment, and for taking the time to read several of my articles on feminism. :)

Zap

10/8/2016 07:31:18 am

Holy shiy.
Not only you're arrogant and obnoxious. You are smug to WOMEN too!

Zeph

3/6/2017 02:18:23 pm

If you think Eva is shrill, you may not have read much of her blog. I find her remarkably clear thinking and balanced (even tho I tend to post more about the things I disagree with - because examining those differences is more fruitful than restricting oneself to the "me too" things).

That said, you do have a point that "But that's just the way it is, deal with it" is not a very cogent argument, and could easily be turned around to justify a great deal of the problems in the world. OK, I'll admit that I kind of enjoyed it when she said that, but upon reflection after your post, maybe that wasn't the wisest part of myself cheering. As I say, you do have a point there.

I think Eva (like most of us) writes from more than one perspective. Sometimes she's analyzing the world and talking abstractly (perhaps about the world as it should be), and sometimes she's sharing tips on getting along better in the world as it is. I would imagine that some people dealing with dating in the here and now might benefit from her advice (not my situation), if they want to have a better time with it - which is a different thing than describing how society should operate (but won't likely change before one's next date). If the advice seems unhelpful, offer your own or ignore it.

When I was in that circumstance (young and seeking/forming relationships), I pretty much avoided formal dating and just hung with people I liked. It worked for me - I eventually got a wonderful partner with whom I'm very much still in love and lust after many years. But that doesn't work for everybody in all situations, so I find Eva's perspective interesting.

10/8/2016 07:29:31 am

TL;DR
"Suck it up because you're a man and equality means you pay for my sorry ass - free dinners ftw!"

10/8/2016 09:01:54 am

From the article:

"grow up and stop feeling sorry for yourself. If you don't have (or are too stingy to spend) $9 to buy her a burrito on a date that you initiated... maybe you should focus on developing yourself before you suck another person into your personal drama."

Devon

7/24/2022 12:22:43 am

I love how the bros whine about "free dinners" but they never say boo about all the free emotional labor that men demand from women. Or the commitment-free sex men try to get from women. Funny how usery going in one specific direction is a-okay for these males.

11/16/2016 12:35:42 am

Sensible tips. If I should ever need to re-enter the dating scene I might return for a tune-up. (Well, that's not likely to happen so soon that it would still be relevant, but anyway)

I've posted some things which dissent on your other blog posts (not as put down, hopefully to stimulate thought), but I should mention that overall I really like your style. It's refreshing to see you sort our your own path through the cultural thickets. You don't just regurgitate talking points, you think about what you say and you aren't afraid to come to your own conclusions.

It's good to see somebody expressing a version of feminism which does not drink the victimhood kool-aid - nor fall into the alt-right anti-feminist BS.

Rachael

6/10/2017 10:35:24 pm

I think alternating who pays is a good idea, or splitting it 50/50. I also like the idea of one person paying for dinner and the other drinks or something like that.

jjjj

6/15/2017 01:28:26 pm

Men: don't do first dates that cost money! Hang out in a park or chill at a library or do something interesting and cheap.

Do *not* spend money on a complete stranger--especially if they're female--before they've proven their value to you.

You can clearly see the gordian knot smugly presented before you in Eva's post: if you want an interesting sex life and you are a straight male, you must initiate (all while listening to women like Eva retort with tedious anecdata about how they "initiate a ton", despite their writing "I don't think it's wise to encourage men to passively wait around for women to ask them out" elsewhere); but if you initiate then you should pay (but if you complain about the resulting asymmetry in initial costs then you're "stingy" and a "whiner"). Just say no.

6/15/2017 02:07:40 pm

I mean, I agree completely with the first part of your comment. Free dates are great! Basketball, slacklining, hiking, and skateboarding are all ones I've already mentioned. Mountain biking, jamming on guitars, surfing, and going to talks (I'm going to one called State of the Union on Poverty & Inequality later this week!).

I'm confused about the part about the woman being a "complete stranger," as I've never been on a date with a complete stranger. Maybe you can elaborate a bit about what you mean.

I'm also confused about why you see this as a complicated problem. Saying, "Don't be a passive recipient of life" is good advice for anyone. How can you disagree? If you like someone, don't wait for them to magically notice -- go tell them! That's what I do...

I guess we can agree to disagree on basic manners, because I'm not going to change my mind about that. If you ask someone out and you don't explicitly tell them how much it's going to cost, you should pay. If you're a big boy, it shouldn't be THAT hard to say, "The tickets are $30," right?

But then again... if you're a big boy, it shouldn't cause you so much butt hurt and drama to spend $9 on a burrito.

John Daniels

5/10/2018 10:06:09 am

So Eva, I can summarise your post as follows, societal standard against men -> grow the *** up, deal with it. Societal standard against women -> something we all have to bend over backwards for.

If you sincerely believe in feminism in the way you define it(equality for both genders), that would be the logical course of action, why the double standard? Instead of just telling men to support causes for women and dismissing ways society has unfair standards against men, why not include ways traditional gender roles marginalise men?

I mean your ironic one-sided take on equality prompts the question of whether you truly want equality in the first place? Or just exclusive, gendered, female privilege.

5/10/2018 10:34:52 am

I'm curious which part of the article made you interpret it that way. The way I would summarize is it (as I already did, in the article -- did you read it?):

"All you have to do is answer the following questions:

1) Did you initiate the date? Yes/No

If you answered Yes, that means that you should pay for the date, unless:

2) Did you explicitly state before the date how much the date would cost? Yes/No"

If you're a big boy, you can use your big boy manners and your big boy words to follow this very basic principle of politeness and clarity. If you're a big boy, you don't need to go around acting like you're some kind of victim all the time. If you do, maybe grow up a little?

The same is true for women, as I've written repeatedly on this blog (see also: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/next-time-someone-says-something-that-hurts-you-ask-yourself-these-two-questions http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/-the-orgasm-gap-is-real-but-dont-blame-it-on-the-patriarchy http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/telling-people-words-only-hurt-if-you-let-them-isnt-mean-its-helpful-and-true and so so many others).

But since men are the main ones who whine about having to pay for a date that THEY initiated without explicitly stating their expectation of who pays ahead of time, they're the ones I specifically mentioned in this post. Facts are facts, even if you don't like them. And the fact is, men initiate a lot more dates than women. You can whine about it like a little boy. You can stop asking women out, and pray one will ask you out. Or you can learn to use your big boy words. I recommend learning to use your big boy words.

Ken

10/9/2023 10:34:45 am

Andrew Tate - female version
What a disgusting misandrist

10/11/2023 01:28:56 pm

LOLOLOL. Yes, it is SO SO HATEFUL to say that the person who initiates should either pay for the date or tell his date how much it will cost.

BASIC HUMAN DECENCY and GROWN-UP COMMUNICATION SKILLS are SOOOOOOOOOO hateful and mean!!!!

Thanks for cracking me up. Girls love guys with a good sense of humor! :)

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FINALLY! A Definitive Way to Know Who Pays for the Date:

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