Guys, Let's Face It: Either Way, You Just Can't Win.

6/18/2018

So I went to this super epic camping party this weekend. (Just an hour from home, too -- I love discovering new adventures right in my own backyard.) There were burgers, guitars, and beautiful harmonies. I was just about to debut my new song, "Expats Are Expats for a Reason," when one of the trip organizers made an announcement:

We were to gather around the fire for group storytime. And during this storytime, I realized that if you're a feminist guy or a male ally or whatever... you kind of just can't win.

Here's what happened:

So the guy announces that it's storytime. Everyone gathers, and the announcer appoints one of his buddies to tell the first story. It's about the time he broke his leg and almost had to be helicoptered out of a wilderness area. Everyone laughed -- it was funny.

Immediately after, one of his buddies launched into another funny graphic injury story.

A short pause, then another guy told a story.

After that story, there was a longer pause -- turns out, it's kind of hard to recall, organize and prioritize every interesting event of your life and tell it in front of a crowd of friends and strangers.

I had a couple I was considering -- some funny (grandma's funeral), some profound (life lessons from pickup basketball), some just weird (the time I sailed with the Russian mob).

I had just opened my mouth, and the words were just about to come out, when the announcer guy... I'd say "interrupted," but I technically wasn't speaking yet, so that wouldn't be a fair characterization. Rather, he said,

"Any females want to... lean in?"

At which point, two things happened:

1) I closed my mouth. I'd wanted to tell a story when it was my choice to tell the story -- not when some 23-year-old told me I had to "lean in." I'd wanted to tell a story when I was a person who'd decided to tell a story -- not some "female" other who was only speaking because a man had invited me to.

2) I finally understood why so many feminists find the term "female" annoying or offensive. Like, female whats? Dogs? Insects? Humans?

If he'd just said "females" when he meant "female humans" or "women," I might not have noticed. I mean, I would have noticed. I notice things like when people say "try and" when they mean "try to," when they say "positive reinforcement" when they really mean "negative reinforcement," or when they say "Lao" instead of "Laos." But the whole condescending othering he'd just done... a little harder to overlook.

Like, what? Men are the default storytellers? And women can only share stories when men tell them to? Women (or females or whatever) think they should be seen but not heard?

Did he seriously think I was incapable of using my big girl words without his patronizing invitation to "lean in"? Was he also planning to wipe my butt for me later?

And, like, look. Anyone who knows me knows I'm not one to jump on the "I'm insulted" train. I'm much more likely to be pursued by that train...

After all, I'm the author of such masterpieces as:

But just because I think it's ridiculous (not rediculous) to get offended by things like facts and objectivity... doesn't mean I'm unwilling to examine language and interpersonal dynamics. And, as I wrote in For the Love of God, STOP Asking People if They're Okay:

All of human interaction can be graphed on an X-Y axis, where X is communion (actions that show caring and bring us closer to others) and Y is agency (actions that establish power or authority. During social interactions, the behavior of one person invites complementary behavior from the other person -- or else there is tension in their system. If I do/say something that is high in agency, the complementary response will be low in agency -- we can't both be the authority. Meanwhile, if I do something high in communion, the complementary response would also be high in communion -- we like people who like us, and it hurts to be rejected.

Where would you say telling women to "lean in" falls on this graph?

Probably right next to changing the baby's diaper.

That said... it wasn't something I was going to get worked up about. Like, it was an obnoxious thing to have said... but what if the guy hadn't said anything? And the next story, and the one after, had been told by males?

Then, most likely, you'd've had at least one female (cricket? dolphin?) complaining that he had manterrupted the campfire for a mansplain-y circle-jerk storytime, and none of the women were given a chance to speak. (If mansplaining is a recurring problem in your life, check out Here's How I Stopped My Mainsplainer From Mansplaining.)

So, basically, though his intentions were good, there may just be no way for him to win.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, right?

No good deed goes unpunished?

Well... maybe. Before I started writing this post, I asked two males, "Where do I go with this? I want to share this story... but I don't have a 'so what' or really any actionable advice."

They... didn't have much to add.

Male One suggested that I remind readers to think about what they're saying before they say it? I guess that's a good, though obvious, point. Saying, "Oh my gosh -- Cheryl has the funniest story about meeting Michael J. Fox!" sounds a lot different from, "Any females want to... lean in?"

Male Two simply agreed that sometimes he feels like either way, he's wrong. He added that this conversation reminds him of a Calvin and Hobbes comic:

From: GoComics.

On further reflection, I decided that perhaps one way to gauge whether what you're about to say is empowering or infantilizing is to replace "females" with "women"... and then to replace "women" with "black people."

Can you imagine how weird it would sound if the guy had asked, "Any black people want to... #BlackLivesMatter?"

But something like, "Josie! You rushed a sorority! You must have a story about that!" (or, to use a professional-like example, "Josie, you have a strong background in math. What do you think?") sounds... more acceptable, right?

Here's another piece of "so what?" for males -- and then I'll give my two-cents for the women.

Human interactions and social skills are complicated. We spend our entire childhoods and early adulthoods trying to master them, and the rest of our lives refining them. It is messy, and you are going to make mistakes.

But this is not a reason to turn into a whiny little manchild who says things like, "It's like you can't even look at a woman without being accused of being sexist!" Other phrases to scratch from your adult vocabulary:

What is the world coming to? You can't even ask a woman out anymore!
It's only "creepy" if you're not attractive and muscular. Hot males can do whatever they want.
And any other variation of "females are out to get me."

If you find yourself dwelling on such thoughts and feeling like a victim all the time... that is probably your real problem. You're a grown-ass man who refuses to self-reflect or take accountability. If a woman found you creepy... don't you think there's a chance you might have done something creepy? And if multiple women found you creepy, don't you think there's a pretty decent chance you are the one doing something wrong?

If women are responding super negatively when you ask them out, it's probably because you're asking them out in a way that is weird or gross. Be respectful of their boundaries. Don't touch people you don't know. Things like that.

Finally, if you walk around in this world feeling wronged by women all the time, chances are you're a real bummer to be around -- and you probably don't exactly exude warmth and confidence.

So, sure. Our society is going through a thing right now, and no one knows exactly how to act or what to say. We are all going to make mistakes. All you can do... is try to learn from them. Do your best. What else can you do? Pout about it?

That said, here's my advice for women:

99% of the time, there is no reason to get upset about perceived slights and microaggressions.

Like, what the guy said was definitely cringe-y and benevolently sexist. But his intentions were clearly good. Why jump down his throat or "call him out" on it? For me, in this story, it wasn't worth saying anything. I don't know the guy and might never talk to him again.

But say he were a close friend or someone I expected to have future encounters with. Instead of getting upset, I could simply say something like, "Hey, I'm not mad, because I know you meant well. But FYI, it definitely came across as infantilizing when you told the 'females' to lean in."

Because, hey. We're suppose to #LeanInTogether or something, right?

8 Comments

Zane

6/24/2018 04:32:34 am

The man's choice of the word "female" is worthy of a blog post of its own. I would have used the word "female." Let me mansplain to you why. I first started to think about this when Hillary Clinton said used the phrase "first woman president." I found the choice odd. But as you mentioned, "female" sounds like something that would describe an animal. I was taught as a child not to say something like, "There is a woman at the door." You are supposed to say, "There is a lady at the door." But it would certainly sound just as odd or creepy for this guy in your story to say "Any ladies want to lean in?" Or for Clinton to say "first lady president." It might be considered classist by some. There is also another factor to consider. Some people, especially where you are in California, might actually use the feminine genaric in a non-sarcastic way. So saying "Any women" would be exactly the same as saying "any people."

Eva Glasrud link

6/26/2018 03:04:36 pm

"Female president" wouldn't have bothered me, because "female" is descriptive. And, I agree. For some reason, "woman president" does sound a little odd. And "lady" is also weird -- maybe because it has all these nice connotations about politeness and proper behavior? And also because I've played on sports teams where the boys' team would be called something like the Regents, and the girls' team would be the "Lady Regents." (Yet asking someone about his "lady friend" doesn't sound weird...)

You raise an interesting point -- it's tricky to get this one "right."

Jadzia

6/29/2018 12:16:03 am

Of course "woman president" sounds odd. It's because woman is a noun. No-one would ever say "man president". Saying "woman president" makes it sound as though "woman" is part of the title.

"Females" is OK as a shorthand for "women and girls" just as "males" can be used for "men and boys" but it does make us sound like the subjects of a nature documentary.

I think Zane raises a good point that children are taught not to say "woman". It was true when I was a child and I notice that it seems to be true now. Indeed,we often go to great lengths to avoid saying woman, preferring "girl", "lady" or even a generic "guys" for an all-female group.

I've also noticed that we have no good slang word for women that women would use of themselves. "Guys" works for men. In Britain, we also tend to use the term "blokes". The only slang terms I know for women tend to be ones that men use of women that women don't like. "Birds" used to be common but is now dated.

There is a subtle implication that a woman is not a good thing to be and it's impolite to mention it.

Steve H

8/25/2018 03:41:08 am

If some women were telling stories and one of them said "any males want to lean in?" I assume any guys present would take it as an invitation and speak if they wanted to. I doubt they would go quiet even though they wanted to tell a story, then go home and write a blog about how this reflects on society. You are highly invested in how men perceive and treat you, and hence are reading a great deal into a throwaway comment.

8/29/2018 01:24:52 pm

I'm always amused when people comment that I must be/do a certain thing because I blogged about it. I'm a blogger. I blog about things -- and often forget I ever even wrote it a few weeks later. Just because you need to be obsessed about something for weeks and weeks in order to muster the energy to write a short blurb about it on the internet, doesn't mean I do.

I'm not sure your counter-example is accurate, though. Maybe because such a situation has literally never happened.

8/29/2018 02:22:08 pm

There's never been a situation where women have asked for male input? You could be right

Zeph

9/6/2018 01:59:06 pm

OK, so I have some points to make, but first let me state that I appreciate much of what you have said above. I'm just talking about the aspects that seem problematic. And yeah, this is another essay.
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So the guy, observing that three males had spoken but no females, said:

"Any females want to... lean in?"

And your reaction was to think this implies:

"Men are the default storytellers? And women can only share stories when men tell them to? Women (or females or whatever) think they should be seen but not heard?"

Wow, that's quite a load of imputation for so few words on his part. (1) He had accurately observed that three men and no women have spoken; how does that imply any generalization that he thinks that men are the default? (2) His words sound like an invitation (as you later characterized it), not as "telling women" when to speak. (3) He may think that some women MIGHT feel by then, less welcome to share, without thinking such patronizing crap as "being seen but not heard". That reluctance wasn't true for you, but do you know it's false for all the other women and that he "should" have known that?

As you say later, you think his intentions were good. Do you think he really believed any of those attitudes you imputed to him, based on the 6 words he actually spoke?

Here's the thing - I've learned that *I* must be responsible for the fantasies i make up in my own head about what other people probably mean. They are responsible for what they actually said, but not for my interpretation. And I expect the same of others.

If I simply say " would you like some tea?" and the other person thinks "does Zeph thing I don't know how to make tea for myself? Zeph is implying that that people of my race are incapable of making their own tea!" - then that's their fantasy, and I accept no responsibility or accountablity for it.

On the other side, if somebody asked if wanted some tea and I found myself reacting emotionally - reacting "as if" that implied I was unable to make my own - it would be MY responsibilty to notice that they had said no such thing and that my emotional reaction was activated by my own unconfirmed imaginings of "what it meant". Time to self sooth and listen, not to judge others for my imagination.

So when you say "what the guy said was definitely cringe-y and benevolently sexist.", I strongly disagree. The only thing that makes it "cringe-y" etc is your interpretation of what you imagine he means, not his actual words.

(Of course, if he had as much time to revise and tweak his wording as we do here he might have come up with something better; but would you or I want to be held to that standard when we are speaking so informally?)

(Caveat: I wasn't there and didn't hear the voice tone, nor have you objectively described it; I have to go on what you have written, as does everyone else in your audience).

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This is a good example of one of the things that sometimes bothers me in your generally very excellent writing - conflating "might" with "does".

For example, it's one thing to think that somebody "might" be having a bad day, or some women in the group might need an invitation to feel welcome. But in castigating such things in your writing, you reframe it as they are assuming someone IS having a bad day, or that they think women in general DO need an invitation before speaking. There's an important shift from implying they are assuming a possibility to implying they are assuming a certainty.

Consider someone stopping to possibly help a car on the shoulder. One might stop because one thinks the occupants MIGHT need help that one MIGHT be able and willing to provide. They also might not need help, or might be far superior in skills to the person stopping to help. The only way to find out is to check. Assuming they do or assuming they don't are both going beyond the facts, but assuming that they MIGHT is reasonable.

But in your writing, sometimes there is a tendendy to reframe a similar situation more like "the person stopped because they assumed that women need help with automotive problems, and so they can provide their superior skills".

What make it sound "cringe-y", sexist, patronizing is your imagined interpretation, your reframing to omit the implied "might" - not their actual words or meaning.

You suggest that people try substituting "woman" for "female" and then substitute "black person" for "woman", to see if their speech is problematic.

In return I will suggest that you could do well to review your blog writing to see if perhaps you have imputed without evidence that someone believes something IS the case (invalid assumption, thus perhaps sexist/racist/rude/etc), when they may just consider that it MIGHT BE the case for some people (often a valid assumption, none of the above).

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If I were to stop to see if I could help a car on the shoulder, I would NEVER, EVER assu

changingthenarrative

4/25/2022 12:58:21 pm

100% I put this on the guy, and here's why.

His comment was cringe-y trendhopping no matter how well intentioned. He didn't ask if any women had anything to share. He used a lame slogan the way so many use lame buzzwords these days.

But in reality, he didn't even have to ask if any women wanted to share. All he had to do was be welcoming and use his masculine energy to create space for everybody -including women- to feel comfortable sharing. This is why I hate the term masculinity and think we need to come up with something more gender neutral to explain what it actually is rather than pretending it's limited to men. A woman could easily do the exact same thing by being how you are and being assertive and strong and inclusive towards others. I say he had to simply use his masculine energy not as a man but as the organizer. He had to be the leader and the alpha and willing to push back on any who were making others feel unwelcome while being welcoming and inclusive himself, which is how you create a space for all to feel welcome.

It wouldn't matter how many men were talking in a row if the organizer had done that. You clearly felt welcome to share until he as you correctly point out basically infantilized you. That's not being a man. That's shrinking and being fake in order to be what you think others want. Masculine energy is direct, strong, protective, and no-nonsense. Actual masculine men have no problem being masculine without being toxic or unwelcoming or threatening, so there's no reason the organizer couldn't have simply been an authentic man rather than a weak people-pleaser type.

Also... Females are out to get me. Just because you said men should scratch that from our vocabulary :P

Guys, Let's Face It: Either Way, You Just Can't Win.

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