What Men Don't Understand When They Complain, "It's Only Creepy If The Guy Isn't Hot."

8/29/2018

We've all heard dudes lament that flirting/hitting on girls/commenting on women's bodies is "only creepy when the guy is unattractive."

Some women boldly declare the same.

"If a sexy man compliments me, that's fine. If a ugly man looks at me too long, that's harassment." (See also: Here's How One Pretty Woman Deals With The "Constant Stares and Compliments" From Men.)

"It's only sexual harassment if he's ugly and poor." (See also: Yes, Money DOES Make You Happier - If You Use a Log Scale.)

"If he's cute, it's called flirting, but if he's ugly that's sexual harassment and you'd better go to HR." (See also: Why You Should Flirt With Basically Everyone.)

Sure, reality is harsh... but so is self-reflection. So let's "unpack" this a little to figure out what's really going on, and how you can do better in your romantic pursuits.

1. In order to be fun and not creepy, FLIRTING HAS TO BE MUTUAL.

Flirting is fun. But only when advances are thrilling, meaningful, or desired. Flirting, like kissing, sex, and... I dunno, tandem skydiving?... is only fun when both people are into it. (See also: Dear Confused Dudes: If You Had To Grab Her By The Head and Restrain Her, It Wasn't a "Kiss.")

Unwanted sexual advances are gross.

I'm not going to sugarcoat things, because that's a waste of everyone's time: if you're attractive, your advances are more likely to be mutual. If you're unattractive, your advances are less likely to be mutual.

Especially in a situation where you're chatting up someone new, who knows little about you other than what you look like.

Facts are facts. The only way around this is to pretend evolution and biology and psychology don't exist.

Yes, all else equal, women like men who are tall and handsome. BUT. What's going to be a lot more important than that in the long-run is his ability to provide. That he has mature and masculine qualities. That he is a loving, considerate, compassionate individual.

And that he's smart. According to Plomin and Deary's expert review, Genetics and intelligence differences: five special findings (2014), "Assortative mating is greater for intelligence (spouse correlations ~0.40) than for other behavioural traits such as personality and psychopathology (~0.10) or physical traits such as height and weight (~0.20)."

In other words, Hollywood is wrong. Opposites do not attract. We like people who are like us -- with respect to anything from political opinions to religious background to physical attractiveness to intelligence. But we especially like people who are like us with respect to intelligence.

But I don't know how intellectually sexy you are if we've only just met! And I'm going to assume you're intellectually repulsive if you think the way to win my heart is to give some cheap compliment about my body or appearance.

So if you're someone of below-average attractiveness, maybe instead of hitting on women you barely know... get to know them first. Learn charisma and be respectful. Remember: it's not that girls don't like guys who are "desperate" or "too available." It's that you ignored her clearly-stated preferences and boundaries.

Once they feel comfortable around you, once they start to appreciate your intelligence, sense of humor, and other positive qualities, THEN it may be time to start flirting.

2. I really shouldn't have to say this, but you're not entitled to a woman's attention.

Guess what? It's okay for women to be attracted to other women. It's okay for men to be attracted to skinny women. It's okay for men to only want to date women with vaginas, and it's okay for women to be attracted to nerds or jocks, or anyone else they want.

We are all allowed to be attracted to whomever we're attracted to, and you are not entitled to a woman's time, affection, or attraction.

That's why so many women cringe when they hear phrases like "friend zoned" and "nice guy."

Remember: no woman ever dates a man because he's "nice." Nice is the most basic criterion. If you're not nice and other things... then you're just nice. And that's, like, super boring.

If you feel like you don't have much to offer, other than being nice, check out some of the advice I shared in You'd Get Invited to More Parties if You'd Mingle, Instead of Cling.

And, again, remember: you are not entitled to a woman's time, affection, or attraction.

3. A decent rule of thumb is, "If you're not SURE the answer is yes, don't ask her out."

In July 2017, Ashton Kutcher, an American actor and investor, was berated on Twitter for trying to start a conversation about rules for dating in the workplace.

Which is absolutely ridiculous. It's a perfectly valid question. If we don't discuss "clear red lines" and rules for dating at work, we spread ignorance and fear. Male and female employees may become afraid to interact with one another. Women may miss out on opportunities to discuss promotions and raises, because their bosses are afraid to have a closed-door meeting with them. Bosses may fear asking employees out for a drink to discuss a project, for fear this could be interpreted wrong.

And, of course, women (and men) could get hurt, by both malicious and well-meaning colleagues.

We should absolutely be discussing the rules for dating (and even friendships) at work.

I don't have a great, all-encompassing answer. But the advice I gave one friend recently when he wondered whether or not he should ask out a woman he works with was, "You should only ask if you know the answer is going to be yes."

How do you know the answer is going to be yes?

You spend time talking to each other at work. You feel a certain mutual energy -- not a one-way physical attraction. It's obvious to you that she likes you and would want to go on a date with you.

If you don't know she would say yes, you either need to practice developing your social skills or get over this girl. Because either you don't have the social savvy to stay out of trouble, or you're asking because of wishful thinking.

And she shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable and objectified by some creepy dude she doesn't even like just because you were too lazy or emotional to examine and correctly interpret the interactions.

4. Hot guys can be creepy, too.

It's not like being attractive gives you a free pass. Look what happened to Ashton Kutcher when he asked a sincere and important question about dating at work.

Undoubtedly, part of the reason women seem not to find hot guys as creepy is your own motivated reasoning. Your mind clings to examples that confirm your existing views. It selectively forgets or overjustifies examples that don't. Even the world's best thinkers are prone to cognitive biases.

And, yes, part of the reason women don't seem to find hot guys creepy is the whole, "If there's a mutual attraction, it's not creepy," thing.

But another part of the reason may be that attractive men simply have more experience talking to and flirting with women. Communication is hard and messy, and the only way to get good at it is through practice.

If you spend a lot of time watching porn and playing video games, you're not going to be as good at flirting or communicating as someone who goes out to bars, joins co-ed sports leagues, spends time pursuing hobbies, and makes plans to meet up with friends.

THAT SAID. Hot guys can be creepy, too. I've met my share, and no amount of physical attractiveness makes it acceptable to harass women.

***

So, long story short, yes. If you're physically unattractive, you may have to approach flirting a little differently from those despised "hot guys."

But one thing you can do right now, that will instantly make you more manly and attractive, is think about what behaviors of yours might be problematic... and how you cn correct them.

Because, to me, one of the major differences between a man and a boy (and, for that matter, a woman and a little girl), is that a man takes accountability and doesn't blame his faults on other people.

251 Comments

Steve H

9/1/2018 02:14:41 pm

"If you're not SURE the answer is yes, don't ask her out."

This is unfair. It's unfair to imply that a guy asking in a situation where the answer may be a no is creepy. It's unfair to imply that a guy can always know. This is just plain unfair, and silly.

Daniel

9/1/2018 03:46:41 pm

Isn’t that just about the work place (3)? Obviously like at a bar you might not know if she’s interested or not and that’s ok. But if you ask someone out in the workplace and she says no that gets super uncomfortable for everyone. I had a friend who did that and it ended up super awkward.

Jacky john link

8/12/2020 11:15:33 am

Welcome to being a man where you’re judged 24/7 for the rest of your life while having to deal with women draining your wallet dry leaving you to die at a young age.

Alun

10/8/2020 05:53:37 pm

Essentially if your not a good looking guy then just look at the floor or you risk being accused of harassment.
No wonder MGTOW is a thing, and this article even points out how ridiculous the situation is but then tries to justify it, you couldn't make it up.
There's a big difference in asking someone out being told no and accepting it to harassing someone but as some of the ladies above said they like trying to ruin guys.
I'm not single but if I ever am again I'm never approaching a woman again it's way too risky.

Joe

2/21/2021 08:37:42 pm

I've read over all the comments here and I think I now have a pretty good understanding of both sides of this argument, I think many men on here are missing a key piece of puzzle that will help them understand this apparent double standard a little better: Complimenting any part of a person's body or attractiveness when you don't know them is considered socially unacceptable. This goes for all genders. A similar situation would be how a person may be okay with a friend criticizing their weight but would be insulted if a stranger did it.

Now my fellow men, before you flame me for that observation, note that I'm not saying that it is illegal, nor am I saying it is sexual harassment. I'm simply pointing out that the behaviour is considered a social faux pas. You are more than welcome to exercise your right to free speech to approach a woman and tell her you think she is beautiful, but she is likewise entitled to decide how to respond to that.

You see, the thing is, if you choose to do this, you are the one breaking social convention. I know that the attractive guy is equally guilty of breaking this social convention, and so I can see why it may seem tempting to say that it is unfair that both guys don't end up with the same "punishment", but dating is not a court of law; there are no set penalties for social infractions. Social interaction is complicated, and women are not chat robots spitting out generic and predictable responses. Also, if a person does overstep and causes offence, then the other person always has the right to choose to forgive them; would you not agree?

This is what is really happening. Both guys are in the wrong, but more attractive men have realized that many women will often forgive their transgression, and so they go for it anyway, risking the consequences. This is why Eva is advising you to avoid this kind of social risk taking at work, save it for the bar.

To be clear I'm not saying you can't complement a stranger or co-worker, because you can, just not on their physical attractiveness. Guys if you want to avoid trouble just don't break this simple social protocol. Here's a few examples:

Instead of, "That dress looks really good on you," try, "You're looking fashionable today." Note how this removes the emphasis on their body. Don't say, "wow, Mary, you look really pretty today." Instead how about, "Your makeup is on point. Your eyes are literally art." Again, you're clearly complimenting her makeup artistry and not the canvas (her body). Personally, I'd avoid even these at work and stick to something more like, "great job on those TPS reports".

Ultimately there's nothing wrong with asking someone out regardless of your looks or theirs. Just don't compliment the person's body. Honestly, I don't know why you'd even want to. It is cliche and redundant. If a man approaches a strange woman to strike up a conversation, then she already knows you find her attractive. She's not naive; she knows the game. You get one shot to impress her. Why waste it telling her she's pretty like the last 10 guys that struck out? Be original and you may be surprised by the result.

Giovanni

3/5/2021 10:07:51 pm

I'd like to congratulate you for trying to understand both sides. With that being said, let me share my perspective here:

Regardless of what society really thinks about ugly and handsome men approaching women, Eva's article is deeply flawed because its grotesquely biased and unsympathetic. Not against "ugly men" and not even against "men", but against whoever takes the initiative (since women can also be the approachers).

Eva doesn't seem to have a properly developed sense of personal responsibility and boundaries (ironic, given how she overuses that last word).

She treats this as if the "approacher" was responsible for how the "approachee" would feel about the approach, and that the first had a moral duty to achieve some (honestly unachievable) level of social skills to never accidentaly proceed in some unwanted advance.

She doesn't care about what the "approacher" feels or about the importance, for everyone, of the task he or she performs (after all, if no one ever took the initiative, everybody would die lonely and our species would go extinct). She acts as if the one who's taking the initiative is basically a "potential burden" and that he or she has to go through all the lengths not to risk the "felony" of making an invitation that is going to be declined.

Eva puts all weights over the "approacher", but none about the potential "approachee" (i.e., any member of society), even though some of the weight has to be shared to him or her. Given that, if you politely ask somebody out, and that person feels "deeply uncomfortable and objectified", he or she is the one who has to grow a thick skin. Not you.

Because there is no "objectification" inherent to dating, and, if the "approachee" extrapolates this out of a simple invitation to hang out, he or she should seek a therapist, toughen up, and disarm him or herself, otherwise he or she will never be able to properly live in a society. It's not your responsibility to prevent someone else from being offended by regular speech.

As I said before, nothing in this world would work out if people didn't take the initiative. Leaving dating aside for a second, kids just form friendships because some of them risk talking to other kids, even if those other kids may get bothered by this contact.

Taking risks is inherent to human existence and human socialization. Of course, common sense and etiquette needs to be respected, but, as I said, that's not what Eva is talking about. She is giving the approacher an unproportionate burden.

She repeatedly talks about how they should erase all possible doubt before making some advance, and that they "need" to develop social skills to be able to understand the signs, and if they live their lives in a certain way this is gonna be easier, etc..

I find it analogous to a pick-up artist advocating that men should have "game". The difference is that the PUA says you should go totally out of you way into a new lifestyle to start having game to have a lot of sexual partners. Eva says you need to do so* if you are ugly, want to talk to a girl and not be viewed as creepy.

(* to an even more unrealistic of a degree, since you'd need to become sort of a mind reader).

I don't consider it too hard to understand why someone may not want to spend so much time and energy becoming better at approaching people, and I don't think he or she should be seen as a creepy for, you know, respectfully doing his or her best for his or her own capacity. This doesn't really damage anyone at all, let alone to the point of justifying taking such a big weight to "protect" other people of undesired advances.

I believe this whole "calling ugly people creepy" thing has a lot more to do with people lacking empathy, and feeling a rush on being judgemental and labeling others, than with ugly people actually creeping someone.

I don't think ugly people (morally) should change something on how they behave on this circumstance, because that's not where the root of such a controversy lies.

With that being said, it's 1,000 times easier to change yourself than to change the world. Most people won't move on from being judgemental, so for a ugly guy all that remains is either adapting to all this BS, stopping to care, or trying to fruitlessly protest for change in an unfavorable environment.

I honestly find the second option the easiest and best one. I'm not ugly myself, but I can still either care or not care about how other people judge my behavior, and, pretty much all the time, I just pick the latter.

I flirt by being myself. If it works, that's great, if it doesn't, I don't care.

---

I'm feeling really sleepy right now, so I'm going just to say one more thing to finish this:

I guess that I just spent like three hours of my life (this is not my first comment) talking about an issue which doesn't directly affect myself; because the writing in this article seems extremely condescending.

I don't know why so many women talk on such a patronizing way towards men.

Eva Glasrud link

3/6/2021 05:35:23 am

This is why people call you creepy. If I'm sitting by myself at a table with headphones in, if I'm working out at the gym, if I'm talking to my friends at a karaoke night, and you decide you want to "approach" -- that is, interrupt -- me, I have no "burden" to share with you. The idea that I "owe" you something because you interrupted what I was doing to express sexual interest... that's creepy. I have no "burden" -- I wasjust trying to read my book!

I am clearly not the one with boundary issues, here. Nor am I the one who thinks I'm saving all of humanity by interrupting someone's afternoon.

If you find the writing condescending, grow a thicker skin. I'm here to help men, not coddle and infantilize them. They should follow my advice if they don't want to be so lonely.

Giovanni

3/6/2021 09:01:10 am

No need to answer my comment twice, Eva. I replied to your comment on the other instance of our debate. I'm going to use this spece just to copy and paste the rest of my original comment, which was clearly cut after reaching the character limit.

It went as follows:

"I don't know why so many women talk on such a patronizing way towards men. It looks like every article ever written about dating assumes every man on Earth is a freaking idiot who needs and wants to be lectured (not just lectured, but actually scolded) about how to deal with women.

Seriously, did none of them ever consider that there is a high probability that beings with access to the internet already know much of that stuff, and just doesn't necessarily care to do what you're saying? And I mean, why is there a male demand for this sort of content to begin with?

But. now that I think about it... Dating advice aimed at women is also deeply arrogant. I was reading some tutorial aimed at girls who wished to become better girlfriends, and it's like the whole website was berating 'stop being clingy, you clingy fuck'.

What if the girl knows that her boyfriend would want more time alone, but as she weighs it with her own needs she still doesn't give him all the space he wants? Is she wrong for, you know, being herself and not acting to please some self-entitled douche bag who angrily writes on his blog?

I don't think so. Dating blogs suck."

---

Now, just to make clear, the reply to your counterargument is not here, but instead on the other instance of our discussion. Please check in there if you want to continue our conversation.

Eva Glasrud link

3/7/2021 06:43:17 pm

>> " It looks like every article ever written about dating assumes every man on Earth is a freaking idiot who needs and wants to be lectured (not just lectured, but actually scolded) about how to deal with women."

Presumably, if he is seeking dating advice on the internet, a remedial level is appropriate.

>> "Seriously, did none of them ever consider that there is a high probability that beings with access to the internet already know much of that stuff, and just doesn't necessarily care to do what you're saying?"

And yet they are reading it.

>> "why is there a male demand for this sort of content to begin with?"

Because some men learn these things automatically or with little effort. Others need explicit instruction to learn it.

>> " I was reading some tutorial aimed at girls who wished to become better girlfriends, and it's like the whole website was berating 'stop being clingy, you clingy fuck'."

If you say so. I wouldn't know.

>> "What if the girl knows that her boyfriend would want more time alone, but as she weighs it with her own needs she still doesn't give him all the space he wants? Is she wrong for, you know, being herself and not acting to please some self-entitled douche bag who angrily writes on his blog?"

Yes. This is dumb. If your need for clinginess is greater than his, the relationship obviously isn't going to work. Guys who do creepy things end up getting called creepy. Girls who do psycho things end up getting called psycho. Ignoring someone's clear boundaries makes a person deserving of these titles.

Giovanni

3/8/2021 08:26:17 am

>> "Presumably, if he is seeking dating advice on the internet, a remedial level is appropriate."

As you probably know given that you work with social media platforms, those articles don't show up just to those who are actively searching for it.

And even this article isn't about proposing "advice for not being creepy". It's titled as an opinion piece about some common saying. One could read it for any other motive.

Therefore, most of the people who come here aren't searching for being tutored. And even if the reader was actually searching for it, I'd guess that most of them wouldn't be as stupid as you seem to think.

Also, regardless of how entitled you feel to scold your imaginary audience of brony nerds, you also treat men as whole with a stupendous degree of condescendence, like every guy had to go way out of his way to take a million certifications so don't you feel a minor annoyance by being undesirably approached.

Which is quite ironic given how much you talk about accountability... Is it other people who need to spend a great deal of energy for they to not accidentally bother you? Or you who should grow a thicker skin or go on your way to avoid these situations?

>> "Yes. This is dumb. If your need for clinginess is greater than his, the relationship obviously isn't going to work. Guys who do creepy things end up getting called creepy. Girls who do psycho things end up getting called psycho. Ignoring someone's clear boundaries makes a person deserving of these titles."

That's not true. People in relationships usually aren't perfect matches. One of the sides can be clingier and the couple can still work out if they happen to find some common ground.

And I didn't get why I told you about girls who were somewhat clingy and you replied by talking about girls who are psycho? Also, who said anything about "ignoring boundaries"? You can ask for some degree of attention which doesn't leave you as unfulfilled on a mature and adequate matter.

I don't think that boys who are called creepy or girls who are called psycho are labeled that way because they necessarily did something to deserve it.

People just lack empathy and like to depreciate others for no reason. When a person insults another, he or she feels better than them, and it's also good for shifting the blame for whatever went wrong. Most people are labeled "creepy" or "psycho" on those grounds. Not because they actually are any of that.

---

Last but not least:

This is just a hypothesis, so I'd like you not to read it as a part of my main arguments, as you may consider it "ad hominem" (even if you were actually the one who started using ad hominem against me and resorting to multiple straw man fallacies):

Maybe you keep randomly labeling people creepy over the comments of this post because that make it feels like you're not a creep, thus you’re not inadequate, and you are better than those who are allegedly creeps and ugly and inadequate. Therefore, they need salvation with all your "wisdom" as a supposedly attractive girl with some random Master's degree.

(I think no Master's degree teaches any moral imperative, so I don't get why they'd be relevant here).

That's just a hypothesis, of course. But that would explain why you said people call me a creep when I never said they did, as you did in your first reply, between other behaviors of yours. You seem to be arguing to “win”, not to dialogue and raise people up.

Negative motivations are usually stronger than positive motivations, and given your arrogant tone and how you put the accountability of your daily annoyances on other people's backs, I find it hard to believe that you are here really wanting to help anyone. It makes more sense for this article to be a window to express disdain against certain people who bothered you, while hiding behind a mask of altruism.

Tired of Whiney Little Boys

3/12/2021 11:24:41 pm

You know what else isn't fair? Massive amounts of guys thinking they have a shot with women who have made it more than clear the answer is NO and they don't take a hint.

And to the whiners about "it's so hard to be a guy, women don't want me" I never... I repeat NEVER see ugly guys going for ugly women. Ever. I always see guys trying for women they have no business trying with. They day you boys start going after personality instead of looks, is the day women might stop preferring to be alone over being with you. I know I'm just fine ALLLLLL alone. A little loneyl? Sure. But way easier and more comfortable than dealing with a guy who doesn't do sh*t but annoy me, or worse. And if you were told you were a gift to women, reality check- it was a lie.

Joe

3/13/2021 02:59:19 pm

ToWLB, you're not wrong, but I think it's important to note that this issue isn't limited to men. All of us, regardless of gender, whether we're 1's or 10's, have been hardwired to value attractiveness. I've know plenty of women to let a handsome man sit around playing xbox all day while she goes to work and supports their toxic relationship.

Ultimately I think you hinted at the truth when you said, "little boys". I think a lot of this comes down to age. When people are young, they haven't yet realized the value of finding a partner that wants to work together to accomplish mutual goals. So instead they go after the default: attractiveness.

I'm in my 30s now and would never even think of dating a woman who didn't have a good head on her shoulders, no matter how pretty. I agree with you, it's just not worth it.

cat observer

12/3/2018 09:13:38 pm

You brushed over a few important things. Those women in the tweets where complaining about ugly men hitting on them. not ugly men who refused to take no for an answer. I agree that if a woman is not reciprocating flirting you should back off but those women seemed to think that even one attempt at flirting is sexual harassment.

If you ask a woman out and she says no, you accept the no, but then she still files the complaint to HR then she is a bad person.

You are entitled to say no, you are not entitled not to be asked out.

Also quite frankly if an ugly woman flirts with a man above her league the man usually politely turns her down. He does not insult her or try to ruin her career. Women on the other hand seem to hate guys they are not attracted too.

I do agree that it's better to go through life hot than ugly. I personally advise every guy I meet to maximize how attractive they are. It makes life much better.

Eva Glasrud link

12/6/2018 11:04:59 am

I do believe I addressed this in my post. That's kind of what I meant when I said,

> Flirting is fun. But only when advances are thrilling, meaningful, or desired. Flirting, like kissing, sex, and... I dunno, tandem skydiving?... is only fun when both people are into it.

> Unwanted sexual advances are gross.

> I'm not going to sugarcoat things, because that's a waste of everyone's time: if you're attractive, your advances are more likely to be mutual. If you're unattractive, your advances are less likely to be mutual.

In other words, the reason women complain about ugly guys hitting on them is because it isn't mutual.

That's also why I suggested unattractive guys take a different approach. Instead of instantly hitting on a girl, show her how witty, smart, and awesome you are. Get her interested in something other than your looks, THEN ask her out.

I totally agree with your last point, too: in general, in a social situation, it's okay to ask someone out ONCE. In general, in a dating situation, it's okay to ask someone if you can (do/receive sexual thing) ONCE. If the answer is no, that's it.

However, when we're talking about a workplace situation, it's a little different. People go to bars to socialize and have fun. People go to work to build their careers and make a living. Women have a right to go to work and not get hit on. Obviously, some of the best relationships start at work...

But, in those cases, I'm pretty sure #3 -- don't ask unless you KNOW the answer is yes -- would apply. There's a huge difference between asking out a coworker because you think she's attractive, but you aren't sure if she's interested... and formalizing something that is already happening, anyway.

I'm not sure if all hot guys are kind when turning down women. Obviously, everyone should be kind when possible. But it's also true that guys -- even hot ones -- get hit on WAY less than women. Most dudes can remember every time they've been asked out because it happens so rarely. It doesn't excuse unnecessary rudeness, but it does add context.

Never Gonna Get It

2/25/2020 08:06:01 am

The comic says it all. Stereotypical that the neckbeard is the one living in his mother's basement, behaving like an a-hole, at the porn convention, and a brony. If a good-looking guy was doing that shit, 9 times out of 10 women would be willing to overlook it. There are YouTube Tinder experiments where over the top obnoxious comments are tolerated and laughed off when attached to a good-looking guy's photo and the conversations keep going and going.

Being nice is worth exactly nothing when it comes to dating if you're unattractive. Advice to "cope or rope" (distract yourself with anything other than romantic relationships for as long as you can or kill yourself) isn't about entitlement, it's about how to become resigned to your lot at the bottom of the barrel or, if you can't, give up since those are your only two options. Men are no more entitled to women than they are a job, to housing, to food, or to medical care. No one is entitled to anything. That doesn't make those who go without any less worse off.

Comic lesson for the day: people who look like neckbeards are brony a-holes. Decent looking guys aren't. So if you look weird (for genetic reasons out of your control, not clothing or fitness), just never ask anyone out, never apply for a job, etc., and you'll do just fine. The problem isn't your clothes, or what you said or did--the problem is you. Your mere presence makes other people uncomfortable. Your mere existence is a grave affront. Fortunately you can still get away with existing as long as you stay out of sight, out of mind.

Don't leave the house because showing your ugly mug in public brings other people down, but if you want to be attractive to women get out more. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Bottom line: When you're ugly other people's hostility is a reaction to your existence, not your behavior. Sometimes (and rarely I might add) losers become monsters because people will treat them like monsters whether they act like monsters or not. They have nothing to lose since no one was ever going to give them the benefit of the doubt anyway.

rinky stingpiece link

11/2/2020 07:43:13 am

A girl I liked once called me creepy.. I knew that it was not because she meant it, but because she was not that bright, and had become influenced by the social milieu of just calling a guy that without really thinking about it.
I replied to her like this: "before you said that, I thought you were beautiful; now I think you are ugly". She cried. I didn't.

I made that up; but why not? Calling men "creepy" like it doesn't matter is making it up too, in fact it's worse - it's bullying and smearing their reputation. It's as impactful on a man as when a man calls a woman a whore. Now let's step back from that, why are men and women being so unpleasant to each other? What is that about? Anger that you didn't get a perfect life? It seems rather like lashing out callously. Men should not be demonised for expressing emotions, even if they do it badly; nor should women, but the reality is that mutual reckless abuse is as old as time... like the ocean... learn to navigate.

Morro

11/13/2020 03:55:42 am

I'm unattractive, I've learnt alot from this article and comments. Looks like a lonely existence for me. I looked up what cope or rope is (in the comments), think I'm gonna go with rope.

Eva Glasrud link

11/19/2020 06:59:15 am

Hi "Morro,"

I think it would be silly to not at least TRY following some of the advice in this article. Like, if people are calling you creepy, you're clearly behaving in a way that makes people feel that way -- so if you can identify that behavior and change it, then people will like you more.

Remember: social skills are just that. SKILLS. You can learn them. Some people do it naturally, without conscious effort. Others study it and learn it like they would a subject in school.

Figure out what you're doing that bugs people and fix it. You'll have better outcomes.

Star fall

11/26/2020 10:57:07 am

@Eva, you can't keep repeating this trope about someone's behavior affecting being labeled "creepy." There's a wealth of data to demonstrate it in the negative that I'm sure has been presented to you already; you just need to actually vet the information. The perspective offered in this article is only damaging that it twists the narrative such that well-intentioned men approaching women and being called "creepy" for doing so is from an aspect of their behavior/decisions and not simply their looks. It discourages men from even trying, which is actually the goal when you think about it more (which this article does not demonstrate). You even *leaned into it* when someone explained that they have tried altering their behavior much to no avail. You seriously need to reconsider this standpoint given the information you have been presented.

@Never Gonna Get It has it right.

I am saying all of this as a man who is attractive enough to get away with "creepy" things like the things I skated from in my college days, but not attractive enough to come on extremely hard and receive endless validation like a few people I know. I also am in a LTR, and my girlfriend does not deny this reality. Time for you to join in on it.

eva damage control

12/7/2020 04:29:15 am

Please shut up, don't damage control.
You are reason nice guys whatever they look like can't find anyone because your way of thinking has leaked out to others and the air heads think like you.
doesn't matter he is judged by their looks even though they own a nice car, have a well paying job, owns a house chicks like you only look for a guys who are been out of jail, drug addicts, think they are cool or even actually beat their women and have good looks then you question yourselves and your friends who think the same go, oh why do I always meet losers like this cause you are dumb your way of thinking is flawed.
Those good guys you push away without giving them a chance don't want nobody and in this day and age I asked friends they tell me no way in hell they would date anyone they rather stay single not risk chicks getting them for child support or sexual harassment or getting them into any trouble at all because that's what girls do now days because guys got smarter after metoo came out they be trying to bring up old news from 30 years ago guys are like all girls got regrets because people lost their looks and trying to suck the money out of them and throw them in jail for no good reason but a 1 night stand and instead you call it something else.

I kinda laugh because the more girls do this the less they will be able to get the good guys all the ugly girls will get them while you good looking chicks screw yourselves over ending up with 5 kids with a loser who is a boozer that lost his looks while the ugly guy living it up without worry.

Amine

1/3/2021 06:08:56 am

I hope you get AIDS and kick the bucket young. You're despicable and full of hate. We don't need this toxicity in society. Just leave.

Sana

1/3/2021 07:14:40 am

@eva damage control. Dude, what the fuck are you talking about? You're so out of touch with reality that you don't realize that things you said are sexist as shit. Women don't need men to provide for them. Seems to me that this whole "women only go out with good lucking guys and if they go out with ugly men it's for their money" is your way of justifying why you can't get a date.

You think child support is a big deal? Lmao. Some men have that crazy notion that women use the money to buy things for themselves, but get this : Almost all of them don't, they use it to cover the expenses of the child. Crazy, right?
But you know what's even crazier? You actually believe women will get pregnant on purpose just to get child support that will probably be a few hundred dollars. Wow, so much profit.
Also child support is based on income, not gender, but nice try.

If the man was rich, maybe I'd give you a liiiittle credit, but from your comment I believe you're talking about middle class men. Sure there's a lot of poor people, but having a job, a car and a house doesn't make anyone rich. That makes you average.

Anyway, I hope the lie you told yourself about hot women being stuck with alcoholic losers gives you some comfort. After all, we know damn well that's probably not what happens at all. Hot women are probably dating hot men.
Also you should really look up the meaning of "nice guys". Reddit would be a good place to start. You're in for a surprise.

Prescott Czygan

1/14/2021 08:15:42 am

Women have to accept either the responsibility of asking men out themselves or just dealing with being hit on. Suck it up buttercup, men are men and the only way we will know is if we make the approach.

Bdnskdk

1/31/2021 06:47:43 am

@Morro: I'm not sure why you're here wasting our time when you've already thought about taking your life.

Just do it and fuck off. I'm sick of people, like you, who feel sorry for themselves and expect others to feel badly for him.

Anonymous

2/22/2021 05:01:20 pm

Morro, do not listen to Bdnskdk. Anyone who reacts to someone's pain by telling them to kill themselves is a piece of shit.

Also, do not let Eva's nasty, snarky attitude get you down. There is no one who is so powerful that they should make you feel like you don't deserve to live.

You have inherent value, whether you realize it or not. Please do your best to take care of yourself and see how good you are.

Lennert Cornette

3/6/2021 04:29:43 am

eva damage control
You are 100% accurate. It's kinda funny though, getting attention from all the +30 women desperate to marry and have kids, knowing their fertility window is closing. Those are the kind of women who didn't give a chance to nice guys but wondering 'where are all the good men?' Ehm, they are together with good women.

Lennert Cornette

3/6/2021 04:24:15 am

'He does not insult her or try to ruin her career. Women on the other hand seem to hate guys they are not attracted too.' This exactly. Women like to talk about double standards, yet they're the ones who constantly use double standards. It's so tiring.

cat observer

12/3/2018 09:45:04 pm

Another problem with your post.

"And she shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable and objectified by some creepy dude she doesn't even like just because you were too lazy or emotional to examine and correctly interpret the interactions."

The whole concept of objectification is bullshit. It's just something women say because saying that they find a man ugly makes them look shallow. So they come up with a vague word like objectify and say that the man is a bad person because he objectifies women, whatever that means.

Also men are worse at reading subtle social cues than women. The woman could just say outright "I am not interested." Us men have to make many accommodations when working with women. Maybe women can make the accommodation of taking the time to explain to men the concept of subtle hints so that they get it.

Lastly the whole tone of your quote is kind of fucked up. Do you ever think that the man may feel uncomfortable when he is attacked as a bad person for expressing his sexuality? After all if he only asked a girl out and gracefully accepted her rejection he deserves to be treated with respect. Women are not entitled to only be asked out by hawt guys. Calling a guy creepy, which implies he is a rapist or a pedo, when he only asked you out once is a form of social bullying.

Eva Glasrud link

12/6/2018 11:11:35 am

People who sit on the couch all day are worse runners than people who exercise every day. Humans are great at understanding emotions and context -- but it is a skill that can take more practice for some people than others. Just like running. That doesn't mean you have to sit on the couch all day.

In fact, research by Klein and Hodges (2001) found that, contrary to the stereotype that women are more emotionally aware than men, gender differences disappear when you pay men to be empathic.

If you truly think that "objectification" isn't a real thing, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. It's basically like trying to convince someone water is wet. If you don't believe something that's so obviously true, nothing I say will change your mind, so let's agree to disagree.

And, again, it's not "creepy" that someone asked you out. It's usually how, when, or why he did it.

cat observer

5/11/2019 09:47:07 am

My main point is that women, especially left leaning women, get very angry when an unattractive man shows interest. Then SOME of these women will use the privilege society grants them to attack the man as a creepy pervert. In other words these women will attempt to ostracize the man from society because he is unattractive. As an excuse for not finding this man attractive and to justify ostracism they say there is something wrong with how the man acted, when a more attractive man who did the same thing would not have a problem. This is a form of social bullying.

The tweet you posted at the start of this article from Linda who said she would report an ugly man who flirts with her to HR is a prime example of this.

Just like we as a society call out shitty men we have to call out shitty women. Currently we live in a society where women are encouraged to be as shitty as possible while men are policed for even the most minor infractions. It would be immoral for society to force women to date unattractive men, but it should absolutely force them to treat said men like human beings.

If you truly think that "objectification" isn't a real thing, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. It's basically like trying to convince someone water is wet. If you don't believe something that's so obviously true, nothing I say will change your mind, so let's agree to disagree.
--Eva

Humans find other humans attractive. When gay men find other men attractive no one cares. When Buzzfeed writes articles about the hottest guys in Game of Thrones no one cares. When men express interest in women they are attacked for objectifying women. The reason you can't convince me that objectification is real is because objectification is a vague word used to attack men who show sexual interest in women. Straight men lusting after women, which is perfectly natural, pisses off feminists and leftists so they make up a word to attack said men. But this word is never used to attack women who for example lust after male bodies without considering the human being said body is attached to.

A man finding a women attractive does not preclude him from seeing the women as human being. In fact people lust after human beings, not objects so the concept of objectification is pretty stupid.

Dan

5/23/2020 12:06:29 pm

Untrue about running. I’ve personally met people who never exercise but can run a few miles effortlessly, and I know people who exercise regularly who struggle to complete a 5k for years. Genetics are king in fitness not matter what anyone wants to believe.

Tairu

10/14/2020 05:01:48 am

The fact that you wrote this & have faced no consequence for sexism & influencing society in accepting this as a new norm is a huge indication of the reason why men can see clear as day war has been declared on their sexuality & they want nothing but for men to be made into disposable slaves. The internet has exposed wmn for their negligent nature(men vs men) toward the male sex. They have lost the ability to be wives because of articles like these that push for the legal murder of men. Men that women want to establish their attractiveness off of, of the failures of men that they initiate. Men should treat ugly women the same way, because women clearly have shown an willingness to leave men without support as long as a group of men supports them. As long as men remain a unsolidified supportive group of each other as a whole, women will always be able to get away with these forms of bullying that they have no problem with men dealing with, but men can't even call a woman fat. While a woman due to the internet, now can take pride in(as if it makes her smv go up) rejecting men, they clearly want to involve harming the mans abilities with other women. Why is this article supporting such attitudes by women as if men are only meant to be alive if they are desired by every woman? When did women think they were "entitled" to be able to depict the quality of a mans life for her own personal gratification? That's LIKE SAYING WOMEN ASSUME IF THEY THINK A MAN IS UGLY THAN HE MUST BE A POTENTIAL RAPIST, OR IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE WORKING AT A JOB, OR TRYING TO BE A MASCULINE MAN! DO WOMEN BELIEVE BEING A MAN IS SOMETHING THAT WOMEN ALLOW OR DONT, DO MEN ONLY BE TREATED LIKE HUMAN BEINGS ONLY IF THEYRE ATTRACTIVE? SO AS MEN WE SHOULD DO THE SAME WITH WOMEN RIGHT? SHOULD WE GO TO HR WHEN A WOMAN ASKS US TO HELP HER WITH SOMETHING WHILE BEING UGLY, AS THIS IS OFFENSIVE TO US AS MEN AS WE ONLY WANT TO HELP ATTRACTIVE WOMEN WHO CAN BE A POTENTIAL BOOST TO OUR SOCIAL STATUS---wait, that would be like what women are doing with ugly men in the workplace. No potential benefit for the woman for the show of support, & the woman wants to hurt the man for almost hurting her socially by assuming she is not more attractive than what she is. . That's really damaging to her, like really(SARCASM). Not as much as trying to depict which men can be men at any given point as they go, & based on their own perceived smv being threatened by them having to be the loving caring & nurturing human beings that they claim to be for all the suitors they're trying to use. That's only for men that qualify, being an adult treating another adult like a human being goes out the window with women & female competition. Such civilized creatures right? Clearly women are phiny beginning to end in their so called love, there is nothing civilized about the way the women in the article are acting toward men. Guess women don't think they have to be civilized with men, they're disposable, just help them to be deleted cause YOU think they don't qualify. The rest of the men are disposable so that she may feel how she wants to. A woman like that has to be an adult that is truly emotionally intelligent indeed, to be able to put a mans ability to live in peace before how she feels. Shows us how much women love the idea of men hating them, they want men to hate them as much as women secretly hate themselves. As much as they hate men. This content is evidence that WOMEN ARE NOT CAPABLE OF LOVE for men. They don't even know how, they don't have love they have sex & needs of men. That's it! So for a man to want a woman is to want to help her, so it's not an excuse for a woman to be a jackas & TRY TO BLOCK A MAN IN HIS MISSION TO BE A MAN! this is not a grown woman, that is a adult child, crying for validation in her feelings as if they're the ones that really matter(no wonder we tell men they don't show emotion cause women can't handle the opinion of men about them if it was taught to boys that girls will try to kill you if they think you're ugly, gotta get suitors fk mens feelings right?). I think it's due to the internet being able to showcase that women are really covert prostitutes & mad about it. They have ruined their image & are in fight back mode to keep sex valuable to men so that this behavior like in this article is waived off as nothing but more evidence of that women are all talk. They are snowflakes who want to be lied to, want a fantasy. They're not being adults in any of these interactions, & their ability to cope with their emotions shouldn't cost a man his quality of life nor should he be disrespected to death like that. A woman cannot get away with calling a man a rapist to get attn for how she wants validation for how she thinks she looks or what her position makes her believe she can do. Toxic femininity at it's worse right here being pushed on our children so that women enforce their privileges given to them by(not surprisingly lied to & not called it in

Joe

2/21/2021 08:50:19 pm

That's a really interesting study you just cited. Dang, I no longer can use the excuse of just being a man to get away with not listening to what my girlfriend is saying, lol.

Doubter

6/28/2019 06:18:45 pm

I do realize that grossly inappropriate advances and sexual harassment from men toward women is a huge problem that is way too prevalent across the world. Too many men do have an issue with sexual entitlement and lack of respect. Because of this, the #MeToo movement is very important and necessary. So, the point that I am about to make is not intended to dismiss that real issue.

However...

I think that, rather than actually do some real introspection and critical investigation, you instead brushed off the fundamental topic of your post too easily.

What people are trying to (correctly) point out is that the EXACT SAME behavior will sometimes be interpreted differently depending on the attractiveness of the male suitor. Which, in the post-MeToo era, means that whether or not a man is called out as "creepy" or a "sexual harasser" will sometimes be a result of his attractiveness level rather than his behavior actually being worse than others. That could easily result in serious career/legal consequences for some men simply for doing the same things that hot guys get away with.

I encourage you to consider Hollywood romance films as an example:

American Beauty -- Despite videotaping her entire family and writing her name in fire on her lawn, Ricky still gets the girl.

Twilight -- Edward is a deadly vampire who sneaks into a teenage girl's bedroom at night to watch her sleep and stalks her around town.

The Notebook -- After repeatedly being rejected, Noah threatened to kill himself if Allie didn't go out with him. Later, he not only wrote his ex a letter every day for a year, but then bought and restored the house she loved to win her back.

Yet, these characters are usualy loved by women for being super romantic and "I wish he'd do that to me!" sentiments. Now, imagine an ugly awkward guy doing these things. Everyone would scream harassment.

Also, consider this experiment: someone made a fake Tinder account using the picture of a super attractive male model and chatted with women. He said: "I can literally say ANYTHING and still get their [phone] #". He provides screenshots where his conversation starter is things like "I want to cum all over your beautiful face" and "I'd like to suck your breasts", and he overwhelmingly gets positive responses and women providing their phone numbers.

https://www.boredpanda.com/social-experiment-guy-created-fake-tinder-profile-hot-model-pictures-germanlifter/

I'm not here to say what is appropriate or inappropriate courting behaviors, and I certainly am not shaming anyone for being overtly sexual. I'm here merely to point out the hypocrisy many people such as yourself are refusing to acknowledge: that YES, a big difference between what is considered creepy and inappropriate comes down to attractiveness. Of course, there are other factors too, but it is intellectually dishonest to deny this.

Eva Glasrud link

9/19/2019 01:39:21 pm

I agree so much about the ridiculousness of Hollywood. I would even add one to the list: I just watched Tall Girl (how could I not? I'm a tall girl!) and it bugged the crap out of me that this creepy little pervert, who harassed his "friend" by asking her out every single day at school, tried to sabotage her relationships with other guys, and SNUCK INTO HER ROOM AND TOUCHED HER WHILE SHE WAS SLEEPING...

Still got the girl in the end.

This little fucker is clearly a creep. And yet, and yet. (See also: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/netflixs-tall-girl-is-creepy-predictable-and-clearly-written-by-someone-who-is-not-a-tall-girl)

In my previous comment to you, I mentioned that it's important for men not to be creeps (in the objective sense: not continuing to ask er out after she's said no, not making inappropriate comments about her body, not stalking her, etc; in the subjective sense: trying to pay attention to her cues to make sure she's interested and enjoying the conversation and you're not just imposing, especially if you've interrupted her to initiate the conversation). It's also important for women to be able to use their words to communicate. Men aren't perfect mind readers. If he's not picking up on your cues, just TELL him, "I need to get back to work." "Please excuse me."

I agree that #MeToo is really important. I agree that it can arbitrarily punish dudes who had no idea they'd done something wrong. There's room for improvement on both sides.

I still think that in most cases, "creepy" comes down to reciprocity, but I agree that some women (and some men) can be harsh, unfair, and superficial.

I couldn't possibly comment on that Tinder experiment, because girls who respond positively to disgusting messages like that are so far beyond relatable to me that their responses literally made me gag. I mean, I guess it makes sense that someone who would respond to "hey babe wanna bang" with "sure you're hot" is someone who ONLY cares about looks, and not intelligence, respect, or life choices. So, yeah, if your goal is to "cum on girls' faces" and have them "sit on your face so you can eat your way to their heart," you're not going to have as much luck with that if you're unattractive, I guess? Again... I really just am so far from being able to relate to that, I'm not sure what to say. People are allowed to do what they want sexually. I'm allowed to think it's gross and sad and depraved.

daddy govt

7/1/2020 03:26:25 pm

I think all your comments should be canceled for being ugly & bias comments, & until you respond to cat observer we don't believe you are not just helping in pushing an agenda to destroy society.

I've seen u get destroyed by several very logical comments that you actively avoided like you probably avoid fat guys, but tell your fat girl friends that they look beautiful & that a man ain't a man if he doesn't like her...yet u spread this indoctrination article for lil girls to believe this is civilized behavior towards males.

Still, women do nothing but try to get other men to point guns at other men about what they should & shouldn't find attractive. All for their benefit while having the same kind of men protect & enforce their own subjugation so that the attractiveness of the women, or even her character, is not the main focus.

Women want men to defend women's right to attack ugly men to death as if those same men have never been rejected by a wmn before. I guess vagina use is supposed to pay men for going against their own interests by women's standards. They believe sex is supposed to be worth a man accepting his own slavery to access to sex.

Using sex to criminalize men, by men, all because you rely on men going against each other for sexual value is not supposed to allow for women to be murderers. They don't kill enough thru abortions? Wonder the real reason for those btw, is it because it was a fearful mistake by a woman who would be embarassed she slept with such a low value man? As if that makes her ugly?

To the extent of committing murder in abortion to avoid having to deal(aka lie for women) with their choice of man & what others will think. So women can get away with murder to avoid bad emotions? Emotions seem to mean more than life to women and yet men are supposed to support women in their man judging & fetus killing, due to a covert shallowness of women that is clearly a default setting for the majority of them.

Which i bet is another female flaw women will blame men for to be obsolved of having to do anything but sex. Why women play off that is nothing else but missandry in a covert dick sharing exercise by women so that they dont have to compete with women. They believe they can make men, thru promises that cant be kept, make other men accept this as ok behavior, because you are ok if you are able to have used a vagina. Right ladies?

But you are doomed if a woman says or complains you did so while not being famous or actually attractive to all women so that she can feel prettier than another woman based off how much said woman should want her man.(men love sex not women for this reason, I will proudly say that because that is just fkd up) Then the said ugly man is made wrong thru attacks against him by an embarassed woman who was a child in her interactions with the man, due to an irrational fear invoked by their own negative views on males in the first place.

All from an judgement that is at the woman's discretion off of being a woman. Who said women can't be sexist? So men should allow & carry out these attacks on men despite the seen & known abuse those actions have caused for their sons, brothers, fathers? Why?

Sex is being used against men for female benefit, not society or the kids, etc. Only women. It's like the default setting for women to measure their attractiveness like this to establish their overall value(& women seem to think being CEOs is going to eliminate this fact for them to not have to meet any standards yet again).

Do we as a society worship sex or God? I know what women expect us to worship.

What have women ever done to deserve such special treatment from men? Are men not allowed to be protected from discrimination from women? Why, because women are fragile harmless.. women? What happened to equality or egality?

I wonder where that stems from, could it be that women want to be able to beat up ugly men the same way they do with each other in crying because they dont look like another woman does? Women attack men to avoid/control female competition so that their safety net is expanded on at the expense of men rather than inadequate women having to cultivate or improve.

So all thats required is having a vagina for sex available to whatever man keeps his mouth shut on the oppression being carried out by her female collective against that same man she is lying to, to use for her own status.

Not being actually an attractive woman or being competent in being as attractive as other women. Just a cheater wanting a free ride that they don't want men to able to have. A sparing of the feelings which women dont want to have to extend to men for some odd reason. Missandry?

Do women have to attack men to fit in with other women in victimhood in how hard it is not being able to beat up ugly men that embarass or scare them as often as they would like? Is it due to the apparent need females have to have his sexual advances be chastised as an excuse to criminalize

datdude

7/21/2020 03:13:41 pm

Lol you are clearly trying to engineer the world so it works in your favor 100% and you never get hurt by it. And the worst part is you want to legislate it to serve you, like women typically do. You will be the first to go when society stops working or taking you very kindly anymore.

Jeff

9/15/2020 10:11:04 am

"creepy little fucker"

lol of course you hate short men. People like you are so boringly predicable.

Eva Glasrud link

9/15/2020 01:57:33 pm

Sounds like SOMEONE'S a little (err... sorry... does that word trigger you??) sensitive!

People like you are so boringly boring.

See also: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-is-it-like-to-be-in_b_2245237

Star Fall

11/26/2020 11:02:32 am

@Eva

You've arbitrarily inserted reciprocity as a criterion for "creepiness" again, but you (again) brush off the very real notion that an attractive man's advances will almost always be reciprocated. The parsimonious deduction from this would be to simply remove mention of "reciprocity" to which one would be left with just attractiveness.

I'm not one of these right wing nuts either. I am simply using the data that is widely available as a basis of forming a conception of the world rather than imposing my ideas.

Xavier

7/13/2019 11:53:40 am

Legally speaking you cannot have different sets of rules for ugly men and attractive men.

If it is okay for Chad to say "Hey Linda, love that dress, it fits you so nice!" but it is sexual harassment for an ugly guy to say it, you have created a human rights violation.

Laws and regulations must apply to ACTIONS, not FEELINGS, because no one can objectively regulate feelings or apply fair rules to everyone based on feelings.

Try to think clearly and you will realize your post just gave a 100% endorsement of everything incel and MGTOW men say is wrong with women today and the entire #METOO movement.

Eva Glasrud link

7/16/2019 09:39:39 am

The rule is the same no matter who you are: flirting is only okay when it's reciprocal.

"It fits you so nice" would be creepy in a workplace situation no matter who said it.

Star Fall

11/26/2020 11:05:26 am

@Eva again, being calles a "creep" is potentially career damaging, and has nothing to do with behavior, for example the time I was called a creep for being black while waiting in front of a house to pick my friend up. You need to actually hear these arguments and provide a meaningful conversation rather than plugging your ears.

Carl

8/3/2019 10:53:48 am

Yep. Sad but true. Women want the double standard that Chad get's to hit on them but an unattractive guy does not.

And yes you can do everything right, from a social standpoint, and just because you are unattractive you can be called creepy, or reported to HR, or to the police. Sometimes you don't even have to approach women.

This is a social problem that needs to be fixed but the lesson here, the main lesson is don't be unattractive. Work out and eat right and try to be as attractive as possible. It's not fair but that's the way it is. One day it will change but until that day adjust.

The world is just that cruel.

Eva Glasrud link

8/3/2019 11:07:38 am

Honey, if people are calling you creepy, you haven't done it right.

Reciprocity is key. It definitely helps to be attractive, so, yeah, going to the gym will help. But so will, you know, getting to know women and treating them like people before you start hitting on them. You want them to look past your appearance? Maybe you should do the same.

Carl

8/3/2019 12:27:38 pm

Honey, if people are calling you creepy, you haven't done it right.
--Eva

No need to get snarky Eva.

A man in a coffee shop asks a girl about her book; she tells him to mind his own business then complains to her friends about the creep at the coffee shop. Or a man asks a female coworker out to lunch, as a collogue with no sexual intent. She reports him to HR anyway and gets him fired. Did these men do anything wrong? No. But things like this have happened and they are unfair.

Reciprocity is key. It definitely helps to be attractive, so, yeah, going to the gym will help. But so will, you know, getting to know women and treating them like people before you start hitting on them.
--Eva

Sigh. So many bad takes in so few worlds. First hitting on women does not mean you are not treating them like people. Second I don't want people to look past appearances. I want people to be polite. Women have the power to destroy men's lives with false accusations and gossip. Is it too much to ask that they use this power responsibly? You understand that? I don't want women to date ugly men.

Now here is some radical shit that I'm about to drop: Affluent liberal white women like you Eva are not victims; they are the most privileged class in American society. So I suggest you check your privilege before commenting on male issues in the future.

Anonymous

9/16/2019 10:44:17 am

Eva,

"You want them to look past your appearance? Maybe you should do the same."

Is this a suggestion/criticism directed at both sexes, or a jab at men, because that is the tone of your post and replies.

Women have complained to me that they are perpetually date/sexless because they can't find guys that will date them, and in the next breath say that the only men that are interested in them are older, overweight, short, ugly, balding, etc., despite the fact that they themselves are not very easy on the eyes either.

I don't think you are being objective in your evaluation of the "creep" stigma, because you neglect to acknowledge the social privilege that females enjoy in terms of initiation and escalation. Women are exempt from the expectation to approach men for dates /relationships. They can simply wait for one who is acceptable to approach them. If one approaches who is not acceptable, she also has the privilege of creep shaming him and backbiting him about how "creepy" he is.

In reality, though, this is nothing more than a pure case of her thinking "How dare this unattractive loser approach me and try to get to know me...doesn't he know that I am on a higher caste level than he is...how insulting!"

Men, on the other hand, cannot simply wait it out or guess that a woman will receive his attempt to get to know her, however graciously, without reprisal.

Eva link

9/18/2019 07:05:49 am

The statement, "You want them to look past your appearance? Maybe you should do the same," is completely gender neutral. This article just happens to be for and about men. But I agree with you. With the exception of "older" ("older" isn't the same as balding, short, etc., because, while people love to say older women have less good eggs, older men also have less healthy sperm, plus there are plenty of other considerations - do you really want your husband to be 80 when you're 60, etc.), it makes sense to not be a shallow jerk. (It's just science. People typically end up with people who are like them. Unless there's a confounding factor, 7s end up with 7s, 3s with 3s, etc. )

That said... if all you know about someone is what they look like, what are you supposed to judge them by? That's why I suggest to men who aren't "conventionally attractive" that they get to know and appreciate someone as a real person before hitting on them.

"Women are exempt from the expectation to approach men for dates /relationships. They can simply wait for one who is acceptable to approach them."

Correction: *ATTRACTIVE* women have this privilege. (Unattractive women usually just feel invisible.) And it's really not a "privilege" to constantly be hit on when you're just trying to get a workout in, watch your friends sing karaoke, listen to music while taking a walk, read a book at a cafe, etc. etc. etc. It's annoying and disruptive!

No one's forcing men to approach such women -- and, again, reciprocity matters. Chances are, if a girl is engrossed in her book, she doesn't want to talk to you. If you happen to have read the same book recently and have something profound to say about it... MAYBE. If you happen to be super physically attractive, maybe. If you are the author of that book... probably. But if you literally have nothing to add, you just want to interrupt her because she's pretty... probably not. Not sure? You still need to have the decency to bug off if she seems uninterested. She doesn't OWE you a conversation just because you interrupted what she's doing, and the attitude that she should is just... creepy.

Similarly, she has every right to call him terrible things -- to his face and behind his back -- if she's clearly uninterested and he doesn't leave her alone. Because that IS another definition of creep.

Of course, my advice to such women would be: creepy and clueless dudes are going to impose on you constantly if you don't learn how to say things like, "Excuse me, I'm right in the middle of something," or, "Cool! Have a nice afternoon," or, "STOP TOUCHING ME," -- or even just shake their heads no without even bothering to take out their headphones. It feels "rude" to assert your boundaries, so a lot of women won't do it. But I would rather have to be rude sometimes than never get to read a book in public again.

Jay

8/15/2020 01:16:46 pm

"If you happen to be super physically attractive, maybe."

Ah so only if the man looks like the typical effeminate body builder male model THEN it is ok to interrupt.

You look like you are freaking fat slob and total POS and your face looks like you vomited on yourself and it is all wrinkled up.

Eva Glasrud link

8/15/2020 01:37:00 pm

Jay, you sound like you need to take a xanax. You aren't making any sense, and if you think I'm going to engage with someone who is clearly mentally disturbed, you are mistaken. Call your therapist.

Eva Glasrud link

9/19/2019 01:54:33 pm

A man on a construction site yells obscene things to a 12-year-old girl on her way to school. A man takes creepy photos of a woman who is sunbathing in her yard.

Does this mean I'm going to generalize such behaviors to all men and feel constantly targeted and oppressed and never give anyone the benefit of a doubt?

No. Even though things like this happen all the time and they are extremely unfair.

Some men are creeps. Some women are superficial. Still, I find it extremely hard to believe that MOST women are going to find men who haven't done anything creepy to be creepy.

> "First hitting on women does not mean you are not treating them like people."

If you literally know nothing about me except what I look like and you ask me out on a date... in what way is that treating me like a person?

> "Second I don't want people to look past appearances. I want people to be polite."

In an ideal world, politeness is better than rudeness. But as I've already mentioned to someone else, just because you had the balls to interrupt me, doesn't mean I OWE you a certain amount of my time, energy, or courtesy.

Sometimes, I have the time and energy to give you a moment of my time -- and if that goes well, perhaps I'll give you another moment. Or my number.

Other times, I'm up against a tight deadline, I'm running late for a meeting, I really want to get to the gym so I can get on the basketball team I want, or I'm just not in the mood -- in such cases, I'll shake my head no and point in the other direction, without even bothering to take my headphones out of my ears.

All else equal, politeness and compassion is better than rudeness. But I don't owe you shit just because you think I'm pretty.

> "Women have the power to destroy men's lives with false accusations and gossip. Is it too much to ask that they use this power responsibly?"

False accusations and gossip are not the same thing. The one is illegal, and shitty, and something I have discussed at length in other posts. The other... I think gossip is great. If I literally had to SCREAM at you to get you to stop trying to kiss me (see also: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/last-night-i-screamed-no-in-a-guys-face-because-he-wouldnt-stop-trying-to-kiss-me-would-you-do-that), of COURSE I'm going to warn all my female friends about you.

Or, as I wrote way back in the day, gossip isn't petty. It's a powerful evolutionary tool. (http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/gossip-isnt-petty-its-a-powerful-evolutionary-tool)

And don't forget: men also have the power to destroy lives.

> "You understand that? I don't want women to date ugly men."

Err... I'm afraid I don't understand.

> "Affluent liberal white women like you Eva are not victims; they are the most privileged class in American society. So I suggest you check your privilege before commenting on male issues in the future."

Thanks for the laugh! :P

2/19/2020 07:50:28 pm

Gossip is also what leads to stereotyping, bigotry, racism, and witch hunts. The Norse recognized the destructive power of gossip; The squirrel Rattatoskr, the God of Gossip, was deliberately attempting to destroy the world by spreading gossip, exaggerating insults, and instigating outrage wherever he went.
You complained about not being treated as a person? Gossip literally dehumanizes people. The negatives vastly outweigh the positives. It's an archaic holdover from the Stupid Eras, and really needs to die out for the sake of progress.

Eva Glasrud link

2/20/2020 12:43:12 pm

Everything good can also lead to bad things. But gossip is an extremely good thing when it helps women know which men to avoid because they are creepy, rapey, or otherwise disrespectful of women's bodies, boundaries, and autonomy.

Jay

8/15/2020 01:20:26 pm

" But I don't owe you shit just because you think I'm pretty."

But you're NOT pretty. Your face looks like a tranny lol. You should consider surgery and lobotomy. .

joe

12/7/2020 05:24:37 pm

i dont think we can generalize.women do need to be careful in todays world when they dont know someone. however if an attractive or an ugly man gives a sweet compliment to a woman,having no ulterior motive but to respond to someone blessed with grace and beauty it should be taken in a good way. it may not be flirting at all. should an ugly man be banned from a national park too. a compliment is a compliment if its sincere.

Anonymous

9/18/2019 02:52:41 pm

"...it makes sense not to be a shallow jerk."

"If you happen to be super physically attractive, maybe."

Take a few minutes to juxtapose these two statements you made.
Can you see the contradiction, irony, and hypocrisy oozing from them?

Eva Glasrud link

9/18/2019 03:35:44 pm

No, not at all. When you copy-paste random quotes without context, you can make anything sound like anything. Or, as Shakespeare might have said, "The devil can cite scripture for his purpose."

I'm very upfront about the fact that, if you're attractive, flirting is more likely to be reciprocated, and therefore, not creepy. Not reciprocated = creepy.

To further clarify:

"If you happen to be super physically attractive, maybe," is about interrupting a hypothetical woman who is reading, and what might hypothetically cross her mind. I'm not talking about a woman who is considering what she wants in a boyfriend, or who is considering who is worth talking to. I am talking about a woman who is by herself, reading a book, and is interrupted by a man she does not know.

"It makes sense not to be a shallow jerk" refers to a hypothetical man or woman who is actively making decisions about whom to date.

A woman reading a book is a woman reading a book, not a contestant on The Bachelor. She doesn't OWE you her time or consideration, just because you interrupted her. People have lives beyond their reproductive decisions.

Does that make sense?

Doubter

9/18/2019 04:38:54 pm

Hi Eva,

I know that many people here are are trying to shoot you down somewhat unfairly because they are perhaps angry or bitter. As I said in my last comment, MeToo is real and rampant inappropriate harassment needs to be seriously addressed. And, I disagree with many of the things some commenters have said, or at least have some reservations.

For example, I think the following statement by Anonymous is waaaay overblown:

"How dare this unattractive loser approach me and try to get to know me...doesn't he know that I am on a higher caste level than he is...how insulting!"

While some people (both males and females) are that egotistical, the majority of rejection is of course not like that. It's very common for women to feel guilty turning men down rather than thinking it's "beneath them".

HOWEVER ... having said all that ...

I do agree with this statement they also made:

"I don't think you are being objective in your evaluation of the 'creep' stigma"

The fundamental point that you seem to be continually dancing around rather than really addressing head on is what I said in my last comment that you never responded to: "the EXACT SAME behavior will sometimes be interpreted differently depending on the attractiveness of the male suitor". I'm not talking about a man continuing to try to flirt with a woman despite her clear lack of interest. I'm talking about the initial attempt before she has even had a chance to respond. Women will oftentimes unfairly denigrate some men with the term "creepy" with carries such a nasty social stigma, when in fact that label is totally unwarranted.

You have said that an attractive man is more likely to get a positive response to flirting than an unattractive man, which of course makes sense. But, that is a separate issue, and you don't seem to be understanding the fact that it is a separate issue. That issue only comes into play if the man then continues flirting after receiving a negative response.

The distinction here is that what I am talking about is the initial male approach BEFORE the woman responds. The exact same behavior undertaken by two people shouldn't be creepy just because one is unattractive.

For example, if a random good-looking woman comes up to me and offers me a flower and a wink and asks how my day is going, I might be flattered and want to get to know her romantically. If a hunch-backed woman with bald spots, missing teeth, and warts offers me a flower and stutteringly asks how my day is going, I probably won't be interested in reciprocating, but I wouldn't call her "creepy". That is just unfair. Her action in itself is not creepy.

Now, if either of the women keep stalking me along my daily commute and trying to woo me for weeks, I might get creeped out. You see, it's the nature of the action itself, not the appearance of the woman, that determines the creepiness. The appearance may determine my interest level, but the creepiness comes from the inappropriate actions not the appearance.

Perhaps if you put yourself in their shoes and imagine yourself or your loved one being labeled as "creepy" by a group of other people largely because you don't fit conventional attractiveness standards. I think if the shoe were on the other foot then you would be much more hesitant to throw that word around. What if the only opportunity you ever had to get a boyfriend/girlfriend or find any physical affection at all were for you to always make the first move, and then you got labeled as "creepy" because you aren't Don Juan the Smooth-Talker but instead are a little awkward and shy and inexperienced and not attractive. How would you feel about the term creepy in that scenario? What if they said to you, "if you go to the gym and get a makeover then maybe we'll be less likely to think you're creepy"? How would you feel?

Seriously, you need to honestly try to imagine being in this situation. Don't just blow it off. The world is full of people who are unable/unwilling to ever truly put themselves in someone else's shoes. I'm asking you to do so with this thought experiment.

Do you see what I am saying? Please let me know.

Also, I would really be interested if you'd reply to my original comment (the only other comment by the author "Doubter"). You're not required to, obviously, but you do seem to be replying pretty consistently to other people's comments, so it would be nice.
Thank you for reading this.

Anonymous

9/18/2019 08:32:21 pm

I don't think they were "random quotes without context." On the contrary. The brevity and abruptness of these two statements gives all the context I need to explain my point. However, you, for whatever reason, are not willing to acknowledge how these two statements negate other arguments you're trying to make.

Let's unpack these quotes, and maybe you'll see what I am getting at. First...

"It makes sense NOT to be a SHALLOW JERK."

Now, to whom did you direct that statement towards? Not "super physically attractive" people, because to you they are of a higher human value compared to "unattractive" people, seeing as you grant them immunity from being castigated for having physical preferences and making cold approaches to attractive strangers in public, as evidenced by your second quote.

If the definition of "shallow" can be interpreted as having a sexual/romantic interest based mostly on appearance, then this standard should apply equally to ALL individuals, no matter where they place on your arbitrary attractiveness spectrum. If an "attractive" person cold approaches another in public because said person happens to find that person physically attractive, then he/she is just as much a "shallow jerk" as an "unattractive" person for having done so for said reasons. Just because someone is attractive does not exempt them from the "shallow jerk" standard you are so quick to slap on "unattractive" people.

Second...

"If you happen to be super physically attractive, maybe."

This is absolutely vomit inducing. You've effectively negated the crux or your criticism towards "creepy" men that they should leave women in public alone just because they are not attractive, and assigning the action of cold approaching women in public as "creepy" solely on unattractive men since you don't think they are worthy of approaching women and you don't approve of their appearance. You give attractive men preferential treatment over unattractive men, which severely weakens, if not totally invalidates your "creepy" premise of men approaching women, even if they do walk away after being told an affirmative "no" or reading the subtle signs of disinterest.

Admit it, you just don't want to be approached by ugly men, period. You don't think such men are worthy of intermingling with women you think are of a higher aesthetic value than them. And if that is your attitude, then you are in no condition to critisize ANYONE of being a "shallow jerk."

What is even more infuriating is that you shame men for being socially awkward, insecure, unconfident, and afraid to approach women and pursue relationships. Well, when women like you say things like what you've said, can you blame them? You're not helping these men overcome their insecurities and social problems when you write articles like this, especially when you label them as "creepy" and attribute their creepiness to their physical appearance.

You are absolutely idiotic in your rhetoric when you purport to help men with their lack of self-worth by engaging in derogatory language that achieves the adverse effect. You can't have it both ways.

Does THAT make sense?

I'm not a psych major, and I did not attend an Ivy League university, but I think the concept of coginitive dissonance is not lost on you.

Doubter

9/19/2019 01:50:08 am

Dear Anonymous (and Eva -- see below),

I feel that you should moderate your language to be a bit more respectful. By berating Eva and demeaning her intelligence, she is less likely to take your words seriously and more likely to see you as just an angry bully. Plus, if you read all her replies on this page, she remains consistently respectful and actually takes the time (sometimes) to write out measured thoughtful responses.

We want to engage her in a dialogue that might allow her to open up to a new perspective. It is NOT productive nor even accurate to claim her ideas are "idiotic". She obviously is a very intelligent person and has shown she is quite capable of considering multiple perspectives. There's no use throwing angry rhetoric at someone over the internet.

She is simply overlooking a crucial element that I think she might well be able to see if she lowers her defensiveness and is willing to open up a little bit and engage her curiosity and ask questions. But, somehow I don't think she's likely to do that if people keep throwing tomatoes at her and treating her like an enemy.

For what it's worth, I think she doesn't disagree with you as much as you think she does. She has said these two things: 1) "in general, in a social situation, it's okay to ask someone out ONCE." and 2) "Obviously like at a bar you might not know if she’s interested or not and that’s ok."

I think in her mind she's kind of conflating A) irritation with being approached by too many random men with B) inappropriately elaborate/repetitive unwanted advances by one person. Point A is annoying but not really "creepy", whereas point B can legitimately be more creepy sometimes. I'm guessing that, because she is confusing these two distinct things, she is calling point A creepy sometimes without realizing her mistake of confusing A with B.

Eva, what are your thoughts on the distinction between A and B above? Can you clarify your evaluation of each of them for us? Do you think they are both equally creepy, and if so then why?

Thank you.

Anonymous

9/19/2019 10:41:10 am

I don't want her to have the "I'm taking my ball and going home, I don't wanna play anymore" reaction to my comments, so for the sake of her participation in this important discussion, I'll try my level best to turn down the temperature. But I'm not going to turn it down so much that she is not held accountable for her shaming language and perpetuance of double standards against men. When she makes hot-button statements about hot-button social issues, she should expect her haughty, sanctimonious assertions to be responded to in kind. To you, her language may be "consistently respectful." To me, her "consitently repsectful" language is patronizing and sanctimonious, carefully worded to feign politeness. It does not give her an excuse not to justify and defend her statments. The strength of steel is measured by its ability to withstand the most intense heat.

I'm also not going to put up some facade of gallantry when speaking to her just because she is a woman after she has voluntarilty body shamed people and reduced them to some number on a socially-constructed scale, that would make me a sexist. I treat all people who make offensive statements equally, even if that means pointing out their idiocy after they have done so.

Do what you will, but I will challenge women's arguments and attitudes, and hold them accountable in the manner that I see fit. If she truly is a strong, intelligent woman, then she should certainly be able to meet that challenge.

Eva Glasrud link

9/19/2019 01:06:56 pm

Doubter,

I don't think I'm conflating those two things, as they're very different. I do think there are an endless number of social situations in which someone might ask someone out, and it's hard to write a comment that is equally relevant to them all.

Of course, there are times when A) some women at some times are irritated about being interrupted/asked out by too many men. Maybe if you were the first man to interrupt her that day, she would have politely turned you down. Maybe if you were the 20th but she wasn't in a hurry, she would still have been polite. Or maybe you were the first but she was running late, so she was curt, or maybe you were the 20th, and she'd lost all patience.

The fundamental attribution error (our tendency to attribute our own behavior to our situation, but other people's behavior to their disposition) is fun, isn't it?

As you noted, I do think it's okay to approach people (in appropriate situations -- never at work!) to gauge their interest in you. But it's tremendously important not to turn into the person you described in B. Person A isn't inherently creepy, but can easily become person B if he's not attentive and respectful.

But in the case of man A, I don't think women owe men any amount of time or attention, just because he had the balls to interrupt her, which is why I think it's important for women to get comfortable asserting their boundaries and just telling guys, "Sorry, I really want to finish this chapter," instead of letting him cluelessly usurp your time, then complain later that he was a creep. Guys shouldn't be creeps. Girls shouldn't let creeps (intentional or otherwise) impose on them.

I try to be very direct in both situations A and B. Maybe you've done nothing wrong, but I don't want to talk to you, so I say so. Maybe I've said no and you won't leave me alone, so I've raised my voice at you and called you names, because you didn't listen to me when I asked you quietly and politely to leave me alone.

And ultimately, I think it's better for the guy that way. If he's doing something women find creepy, isn't it better to get real, honest feedback (not that I OWE him that) instead of ambiguous and misleading politeness?

You've asked for an objective understanding of creepy. That's also a hard question, because while certain things ARE objectively creepy (touching someone who is sleeping, following someone around, asking someone out after they've already told you no)... other things are subjective. I personally don't find men approaching me in a bar to be creepy. Some women do. Why? I don't know. Same reason I don't understand why they feel the need to stuff keys between their fingers because they think someone's going to attack them on their walk home from work.

Many measures of creepy ARE subjective. I think when men try to draw a parallel where they are approached by women, they miss out on the whole (I HATE saying this, because it's overused in social justice circles to the point that it's a meaningless catch-all) "power dynamic." Chances are a woman who approaches you on your commute, whether hot or warty, isn't physically capable of overpowering you. Chances are 100 women who look just like her haven't heckled and cat called you on your way to work. It's not really a perfect model.

By making the second woman hideously unattractive, I guess you highlight some amount of unfairness. If I know nothing about you except that you are missing teeth and covered in warts... I mean, disgust is a really important and powerful evolutionary emotion. It would make life really hard for people with obvious physical issues, because we are designed to be repulsed by things that could be contagious and we are designed not to be attracted to people who seem to be unhealthy, have bad genes, or might not be fertile.

But, to me, that's a pretty extreme example, beyond your run-of-the-mill, below average attractiveness.

Adding to the potential perception of creepiness is that it IS strange that someone who was so very clearly "not in my league" would approach me, because it almost kind of implies a disregard for reciprocity or consent? It feels cruel to say -- and I wouldn't say it about someone who was simply a 3, but was extremely intelligent and talented and shared other traits and values with me.

And I don't know what a good solution to that is, beyond the advice I've already given of getting to know someone before making romantic gestures, because if you're old and bald and warty and toothless and you hand me a rose, literally all I know about you is that you're old et al. If we met through a meet-up or a mutual friend or a trivia team and I was consistently surprised by your knowledge... it shows me we have something in common.

Eva Glasrud link

9/19/2019 01:23:50 pm

Doubter (cont),

It's a big topic that's impossible to address in one blog post or comment, especially considering the parts of "creep" that are subjective.

For the things beyond someone's control -- I do imagine what it's like. When I was thinking about the warty toothless person in your hypothetical, I actually felt sick in my stomach for the pain and isolation that person would feel. I feel a tremendous amount of sympathy for people who can't escape their looks.

But I also know that people don't just pick partners based on appearance. That's why, when you say things like,

"Every opportunity you ever had to get a boyfriend/girlfriend or find any physical affection at all were for you to always make the first move, and then you got labeled as "creepy" because you aren't Don Juan the Smooth-Talker but instead are a little awkward and shy and inexperienced and not attractive,"

I just find it hard to... relate? I don't mind awkward (as long as it means you act a little goofy, not that you think it's okay to touch me when I don't even know you or make inappropriate comments about my body). I don't mind shy (as long as you're still capable of having a conversation with me and I can get to know you). I like inexperienced. And, again, attractiveness... really isn't that big a deal to me.

I don't mind someone making the first move, as long as he clearly cares about reciprocity and consent. I wouldn't label someone creepy for that. I can't speak for every single woman on the planet. But I can say that, for every woman I've talked to on the subject, "creepy" is used to describe men who don't seem to care about reciprocity.

As I've acknowledged, attractive guys are more likely to have their flirting reciprocated. That sucks, it's a hard problem, and it makes me feel terrible for well-meaning guys who just can't get a break. That's why I wrote a thing to remind them, there ARE ways to meet women other than hitting on random women at bars and cafes, and that might be a better strategy.

Does... that answer your question?

Doubter

9/19/2019 09:08:41 pm

Thanks for your responses. They are appreciated. Your last comment has no "Reply" button, so I'm starting a new thread.

As you rightly said, it is admittedly too big of a topic to really fit into these comments.

You did answer most of my questions, but not all. You didn't really answer this one:
> "What if they said to you, "if you go to the gym and get a makeover then maybe we'll be less likely to think you're creepy"? How would you feel?"

You say you can't relate, but I'm confident you can use your imagination here. Really, no one in your entire life has ever said anything negative about your looks or something awkward about you? Surely you can imagine someone saying my sample words to you on top of already having some insecurities.

I agree that creepiness is subjective. But that subjectivity doesn't mean it can just be applied liberally without proper reflection. Racism can also be subjective, but you certainly wouldn't want people liberally throwing that word in your direction would you? Think about all the times you said or did something insensitive or that was misinterpreted by a person of color as being worse than you actually meant it ... and probably you never even realized they were hurt by it because they never told you!!! What if they told people in your extended social circles that you were kind of racist? You'd be fine with that, right? To use your words, you "find it extremely hard to believe that" someone who thinks another person is creepy/racist isn't usually accurate.

> "I find it extremely hard to believe that MOST women are going to find men who haven't done anything creepy to be creepy."

I think the reason you think this way is because you don't have the experience of being a man. It's not as black and white as you imagine. I myself have been told "stop being so creepy" before by a woman in my a cappella group long ago, and it was extremely hurtful to me because it was so inaccurate and out of nowhere, and it was in front of others. I had never hit on her nor was I even interested in her. I believe that she actually had been interested in me previously, although I can't say that for sure. At this point I think she had moved on, but maybe she was slightly resentful because she thought I had rejected her previously? I don't know. But I can swear to you that I absolutely was not doing anything "creepy" with her or anyone in the group, although I was a bit more socially awkward in general back then. Her accusation was unfair.

You seem to be assuming that the world has few valid perspectives outside your own, and therefore men must all be mistaken when they say "creepy" is unfairly used sometimes. If you could only walk in someone else's shoes you would surely change your mind.

There is an awesome mini documentary about a woman who decides to pretend to be a man for over a year (buzz cut, bound breasts, male clothes, fake facial hair, etc.) and she passes: no one knows she's actually a woman. She has lots of fantastic revelations about the perceived differences between male and female behavior, and how much more empathy she gains. But, it's her experience trying to hit on other women (while pretending to be a man) that I want to share with you: the women are harsh and even mean in rejecting her attention, even if she's merely making gentle casual conversation. She later reveals to one of them that she is actually a woman and they talk for moment, and that woman softens enormously and even apologizes for being so cold to her. Her face goes from a scowl to a sheepish smile. It's incredible to watch. She hadn't said any pick up lines to this woman, just merely tried to engage her in light conversation.

My point here is that women are conditioned to often see men as "just another creep" when in fact it's often not the case. I understand that the onslaught of unwanted male attention as well as real creepiness causes this conditioning. But, we humans easily over-generalize. The butch woman in the documentary learned with her own eyes how much assumptions are made about the opposite gender on both sides.

> "I personally don't find men approaching me in a bar to be creepy. Some women do."

Ok, but if two recipients of the attention feel differently about it then which is right? They cannot both be correct. Is the man's action inappropriate or not?

> "isn't it better to get real, honest feedback (not that I OWE him that) instead of ambiguous and misleading politeness?"

I completely agree. Nowhere am I saying that men are owed responses. The only issue I'm focusing on is the use of the label "creepy".

> "Adding to the potential perception of creepiness is that it IS strange that someone who was so very clearly "not in my league" would approach me, because it almost kind of implies a disregard for reciprocity or consent? It feels cruel to say"

I think you have partially but not completely understood what I was getting at. In my view it is not accurate to say someone ap

Doubter

9/19/2019 09:12:55 pm

My last comment was truncated apparently. This is the rest of it:

In my view it is not accurate to say someone approaching you is creepy because of their attractiveness NO MATTER how ugly they are. It does NOT necessarily imply a "disregard for reciprocity or consent". That is a bit of a stretch, especially to use the word "consent" in there. It would be awkward, it would be sad, and I might feel uncomfortable and guilty turning them down, but I would never call it "creepy". Creepy is a pejorative word that explicitly passes a kind of social/moral judgement onto someone ... Like the word "racist": it says something about that person themselves, not merely how we felt interacting with them.

And, just because it is an extreme example does not mean it's invalid. I chose that example precisely because it's extreme: that way we can really suss out the difference between uncomfortable and creepy. Your words seem to be treating uncomfortable as mostly equivalent to creepy. If the encounter makes you uncomfortable then it can be labeled as creepy. But obviously that is unfair and incorrect. If you approached me in a bar and your breath smelled wretched, I would be uncomfortable. Would my discomfort with this social interaction justify me calling you "creepy"? I'm seriously asking you: Does discomfort truly imply creepiness?

What about in the 1950's when black men interacted with white women? If the white women were uncomfortable with a "too-friendly" black man who gave her an "inappropriate" smile/grin, would she be correct in calling him creepy? Remember, black men were lynched for this, their eyes gouged out. If she was scared when a group of black men walked by, would they be "creepy"? If such a woman finds black men creepy, does her feeling that way actually make it true? No, obviously it does not. Feelings do not equal truth. White people used to feel like black people are dangerous. Just because a woman feels creeped out does not mean the other person is necessarily being creepy. And, remember, racism in social interactions continues even today. So does classism: e.g., sometimes a poor man in tatters might seem more creepy than rich guy in silk suit. Ableism: What about someone on the autism spectrum who means absolutely no harm but is socially inept?

Prejudices DO NOT justify the "creepy" label. It cannot be applied to whatever you feel like applying it to. Feelings do not always equal reality.

Does everything I said make sense? And, do you have any questions for me?

Eva Glasrud link

9/20/2019 03:05:38 pm

First, bleh. I hate it when comments get truncated. I wish I could make it so you at least get a warning before your text just gets lost forever.

Second, the reply button can be confusing, as some replies don't have them. I think usually if you click the Reply button higher up in the thread, it posts your new comment below the one you're replying to.

Not that it matters. New thread is fine.

>You did answer most of my questions, but not all. You didn't really answer this one:
>> "What if they said to you, "if you go to the gym and get a makeover then maybe we'll be less likely to think you're creepy"? How would you feel?"

I think that's a mischaracterization of what I said. What I said was, "Reciprocity is key. It definitely helps to be attractive, so, yeah, going to the gym will help." As in, if you look better (perhaps by wearing better clothes, perhaps by having more toned arms or being less overweight), people will be more likely to find you physically attractive, and therefore more likely to reciprocate your flirting.

This is true.

You took it a step further and claimed I said "if you go to the gym, people will find you less creepy." That's not what I said. Creepy is a behavior. Attractiveness is a trait. (Well, it's also a behavior, but you see what I mean.)

You can be unattractive and not creepy. You can be attractive and creepy. It's two different things, though they obviously affect each other.

No, people in my life haven't criticized my looks -- maybe my clothes, sometimes. Or, like, women would be shocked that I don't shave my legs. I never took it personally because it wasn't something I was insecure about. There's also a difference between giving general advice to a general audience (generally, fitter people are considered more physically attractive)... and telling someone, individually and personally and directly, "You're too fat. Go to the gym."

I think creepiness/racism is a strange comparison, because they're two different things. Generally, I find it pretty easy not to offend my non-white friends. If I want to ask something that is potentially sensitive, I'll preface it with, "We definitely don't have to talk about this if you don't want to," which, I guess, is ever so slightly comparable to asking someone before you touch them or something?

Similarly, I would pay enough attention to the people I was with that, should I accidentally say/do something that offended them, I'd notice their reaction and stop, and, again, ask if I was unsure. "Err... I feel like I just did something wrong, but I'm not sure what..."

If, even though I was reasonable and considerate, they STILL decided they don't like me, I think it's probably better that we part ways. I can't spend the rest of my life dancing on eggshells because someone is extremely hypersensitive. Or, like, if someone freaked out every time I said, "Hey, guys"... I feel like that's someone I don't really need in my life. Not everyone is compatible with everyone.

I can see why the a cappella thing was hurtful to you -- especially in such a public setting. It sounds like there was some subtext (feelings of rejection) that may have influenced her behavior, and since I don't know what you did to make her say that (and neither do you), it's hard to comment beyond, yes. I can see why that stung. Depending on my relationship with the person, I would have either stopped talking to them (because what's the point?), or asked them later, maybe privately (but not like followed her to her car privately), "I'm really sorry, and I'd like to understand what I did wrong so I can make sure I don't do it again."

I may not have the experience of being a man. But I have the experience of interacting with more than I can remember. I have the experience of feeling SO respected by someone who, even though we had THE most amazing time and talked the whole night and couldn't even SEE the other people in the room, didn't try to kiss me goodnight, because we'd only just met, and my body language was enough to tell him I wasn't ready to kiss him yet. I've had the experience of guys asking before they kissed me, then respecting my answer either way -- and I've had the experience of guys trying to "surprise" me with a gross sneak attack kiss, or whining some shit like, "Come onnnnn!" or, "I don't even get any cuddles?" when I tell them no. I've been shocked by how in-tune guys were with me; I've been shocked that they could have POSSIBLY thought there was a connection between us. I've seen all ranges of charismatic and socially awkward and inappropriate. So I think I'm plenty qualified to give advice on the topic.

Eva Glasrud link

9/20/2019 04:27:26 pm

(cont) I haven't seen that documentary, but I'm not surprised women were weird to that imposter-lady. I mean, everything about her was a lie, no? And, undoubtedly, despite wearing boy clothes, it's impossible for her to truly embody a man. Her whole thing was she was misrepresenting herself, and every word out of her mouth was a lie. People are kind of good at detecting authenticity. So, having not see it, that's my gut impression.

That, and it's not a random sample. It's a highlight reel meant to entertain and be dramatic. Anecdotes can definitely humanize issues or bring struggles to light, but it is ultimately a movie, not a scholarly and representative study. I'm sure some women are ruthless, insecure, and rude. Just like some men are rapey bastards. But a documentary can't possibly tell you how many. I only know how I and my friends behave, and it's not like that.

>> "I personally don't find men approaching me in a bar to be creepy. Some women do."

>Ok, but if two recipients of the attention feel differently about it then which is right? They cannot both be correct. Is the man's action inappropriate or not?

We've agreed that creepiness is subjective. So, sure, they can both be correct. Especially when you consider other factors. Was she sitting in a group with her friends and you butted in? Was she already in a conversation with another man and you interrupted? Did she have headphones on? Prior to your approach, had the two of you made eye contact? Smiled at each other? Did you follow her outside or to the bathroom? Was she sitting at the bar or a private table? What kind of expression did she have on her face?

Remember: other people's behavior is WAY more situational and way less dispositional than we may assume.

I'm not sure if I am the one who is making it black and white, here.

We can agree to disagree on the extreme example, because I'm talking about people who are below average attractiveness, and you're talking about someone who is grotesque and hard to look at.

Rethinking it, the "flower" thing is, itself, slightly creepy. If the same warty disfigured person approached me in Sagrada Familia and said, "I noticed you didn't pay $14 extra for an audioguide. I just finished mine and am about to leave. Do you want to use it?" I wouldn't find that creepy. If the disfigured warty person approached me in the metro and said, "I'm on my way to the airport, but I still have 4 rides left on my card -- do you want it?" I wouldn't think that was creepy, either. (Even though, due to the disfigurations, it WOULD be uncomfortable.) These are things with extrinsic value. A flower only has intrinsic value. Given by a stranger... I mean, I guess I might smile. Flowers are pretty. Giving flowers is nice, maybe, if the person gives it to you and walks away. If they don't walk away, my hackles go up. You don't know me and you just gave me this loving token of affection. Why? If it's like a monk or a nun, I assume they now want a donation for their church. If it's a dude, I assume he's trying to invoke the reciprocity principle and try to manipulate me into giving him something in return: my number, my time. I don't know. Endless hypothetical social situations are complicated.

Uncomfortable and creepy are two different things. But if your behavior makes someone feel uncomfortable and you don't stop, you are being creepy. You're not creepy for trying to hold my hand once, even though I didn't like it because to me, handholding is really intimate. But you ARE creepy for trying to hold my hand AGAIN immediately after I take it away from you.

Girls don't like being cornered, pestered, and interrupted. When people do that to them, it makes them feel uncomfortable, because it is creepy. It implies a disregard for reciprocity or consent. It is both uncomfortable and creepy.

Giving a flower can be uncomfortable, or it can be creepy, or it can be both.

You are right -- bad breath is more uncomfortable than creepy. But if you have bad breath, so I scoot further away from you, and you scoot closer to me... that's creepy. I created space. You took it away. You demonstrated you don't give a shit about my boundaries, my consent, my reciprocity.

Again, I don't think racism is the same thing at all...

But to address your examples:

>> If the white women were uncomfortable with a "too-friendly" black man who gave her an "inappropriate" smile/grin, would she be correct in calling him creepy?

In a modern context, I think lots of people would be uncomfortable with a "too-friendly" anyone. But you're talking about something completely different from a different time with way too many confounding factors. Horrible things have happened to black men because of white women, and there's no excuse for that. Horrible things have also happened to black women because of white men.

>> If she was scared when a group of black men walked by, would they be "creepy"?

Again, this is a completely different topic

Eva Glasrud link

9/20/2019 04:32:17 pm

(cont) >> If she was scared when a group of black men walked by, would they be "creepy"?

Again, this is a completely different topic. Lots of social justice types say it's racist to cross the street when you feel uncomfortable. I say... if you're scared or intimidated, trust your gut. Like, best case, if they even notice you notice you crossing the street (which, if they're involved in their own conversation rather than creepily watching you walk towards them, they probably won't), they might be a little hurt. Worst case, you ignore your gut and you get raped and spend the rest of your life blaming yourself for not trusting your gut.

But I think any group of men, regardless of skin color, should be sympathetic to the feeling a lone woman would feel approaching them... If you're such a whiny, persecuted little boy that THAT offends you... perhaps you're the kind of person the woman is better off crossing the street to avoid.

I don't think they would be creepy just by standing there. I do think she has a right to feel safe. However, if they noticed her cross the street, obviously because she was feeling vulnerable or intimidated or uncomfortable, and the men decided to taunt her, shout at her, or follow her -- THAT would be creepy.

>> If such a woman finds black men creepy, does her feeling that way actually make it true?

It depends. Did he/they do something creepy?

>> Feelings do not equal truth... Just because a woman feels creeped out does not mean the other person is necessarily being creepy.

Interactions go two ways. How you behave should be a response to how the other person behaves. Just because you don't FEEL like you're being creepy, doesn't make that true, either.

Feelings are subjective. Creepiness is subjective and situational. Some men are gross. Some women are mean. Some dudes refuse to examine their own behavior and try to be more mindful and respectful moving forward, because they'd rather continue being creepy than acknowledge that their past behaviors made people uncomfortable.

>>Sometimes a poor man in tatters might seem more creepy than rich guy in silk suit.

A poor man in tatters and I likely have nothing in common. What would we even talk about? People like people who are like them, in terms of values, career, SES, religion, politics, background, attractiveness, intelligence, etc. etc. etc.

To someone from a really marginalized community, though, the silk suit guy might scare the hell out of you. Maybe he's here to BUY a teenage girl. Maybe he's here to tell the single moms who work three jobs that he's increasing their rent -- but he's sure they can make another arrangement if they can't afford it. WINK. Maybe he's a drug dealer. Maybe he's a pimp. Either way, it's creepier to see him walking around than a guy in tatters.

>> Ableism: What about someone on the autism spectrum who means absolutely no harm but is socially inept?

It's not my job to educate and rehabilitate someone who is socially inept. You're not entitled to my affection or attention, just because you're on the spectrum. If your behavior makes me uncomfortable, I'm not going to date you.

Moreover, just because you MEAN no harm, doesn't mean you're incapable of causing harm.

Doubter

9/21/2019 09:10:21 pm

Hi Eva,

Thanks again for your thorough responses.

I must admit that I am disappointed and surprised by your responses and the way you interpreted the hypothetical situations I offered. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, like "I'm disappointed in you, foolish child" or anything like that. I just mean personally inside myself, I realize that the effort I put into writing my words really didn't land with you at all and isn't going to. You seem to have a very strong sense of how things are in the world based on your experience, and no suggestions to the contrary are going to alter that, at least not coming from strangers on the internet.

I can understand that, though. We all can be like that sometimes, and I definitely have been guilty of that before too.

I wish you had done more self-reflection and really made an effort to use my prompts to help question your thinking. Maybe I didn't convey them well enough. I'm not asking you to throw the baby out with the bath water and abandon everything you believe, haha, merely to take to heart the suggestion that some of your convictions might be a little shortsighted and not seeing the whole picture. That's part of the process of learning and growing: to come to realize that issues are more nuanced than we thought, and blame cannot be assigned so easily. What we once thought was a clear case of "that's creepy, don't do it" is actually not necessarily the dynamic we originally thought it was.

Your attempts to keep explaining what constitutes creepy behavior is a little strange to me. As if you think I don't already understand those things, or have no clue why women are complaining about creepiness. Of course I do. That you would assume I somehow don't understand these things and that my hypothetical thought experiments and comparisons to racism are irrelevant ... is weird to me. You really believe that there is nothing deeper to what I'm saying, nothing beneath your merely superficial reading of what I wrote. I find that surprising and a little frustrating.

Anyway, I'm sorry if this sounded like a lecture. I just wanted to be honest with you rather than just say, "Ok, we'll agree to disagree".

There's no point in my responding to any points you made because I don't feel like you have any actual interest in changing your mind about this topic. In all these comments, you haven't really expressed that you might have overstated something or admitted something might be more nuanced that you original thought. Although, you did say these things:

> "I agree that it can arbitrarily punish dudes who had no idea they'd done something wrong."
> "I still think that in most cases, "creepy" comes down to reciprocity, but I agree that some women (and some men) can be harsh, unfair, and superficial."

So, I do appreciate that. It shows a crack in the armor, haha, which I think is good. We all think that we're more openminded than we actually are.

I'm sorry that you have had some bad experiences with men. Of course, we've had bad experiences with women too, but that doesn't negate the stuff you have had to put up with. I will continue to fight for true equality, love, and respect for you and everyone.

I wish you the best, and may we all learn from each other and have more compassion and less assumptions as we go forward.

Take care.

Eva Glasrud link

9/22/2019 11:19:36 am

I know "it depends on context" isn't a satisfying answer, and it's not an EASY answer, but it's true. Every person and situation is different, which is part of why giving advice on interpersonal topics is so hard. You can't just say, "If someone did X and the other person did Y, is that fair?" because so much is missing from that hypothetical. The whole point of this post is that you HAVE to pay attention to the social cues, because in most cases (yes, I acknowledged, some women are superficial or judge-y, but some men are also jerks) that's going to be a key factor in whether someone finds you creepy.

A creepy person is someone who either doesn't notice or doesn't care when he's making you uncomfortable. A creepy person is someone who feels ENTITLED to your time, touch, or personal information.

There's nothing shortsighted about my "experience" or "convictions" or whatever. If someone is offering you advice that they say applies to all situations, they're either creepy, or full of shit.

We can continue to agree to disagree on comparisons that I think are irrelevant. Racism in the 1950s and women wanting their boundaries respected in 2019 are two different things to me. Would you seriously compare a black man being lynched to a white man being called creepy?

All I've said in ANY of these comments is that situations are complicated, and that is why you have to pay attention to social cues and develop the kind of mindfulness and attentiveness that makes people you talk to feel more comfortable.

Moreover, if you're willing to quickly and immediately dismiss any negative interaction with women as, "Women are shallow, and I obviously did NOTHING wrong, I'm just not attractive enough," you might not be capable of the "self-reflection" to learn and grow from a bad experience.

> "It shows a crack in the armor, haha, which I think is good. "

No. Because I clearly said, over and over, that every situation is different, and some men and some women are mean. It would be great if you could tell by looking at them which women are cruel and which men are violent, but you can't. That's why cruel and violent people have such a steady supply of victims.

So you can either live your whole life assuming the worst about everyone and never trying to improve yourself... Or you can acknowledge that different people and situations are different, and try to learn ways to notice and respond to other people's behavior.

I appreciate you taking the time to comment

Ben

2/4/2020 03:14:15 pm

I just want to say that I loved reading this exchange. There were moments where I felt like y'all were talking past each other a little, but I'm really impressed with how you were both generally able to keep it civil and bring up interesting points.

Anonymous was just a jerk though.

Nomad

9/20/2019 06:26:07 am

This is moronic. It’s extremely hypocritical in an age where women cry about fat shaming and everything else under the sun. So you say a man can’t even talk to a woman if he isn’t hot enough? Get off your high horse, most of these women aren’t exactly hotties themselves. Even if they were it doesn’t mean you have some right to be nasty to people without getting negative feed back. You don’t have to date people you aren’t attracted too but have some common courtesy.

Eva Glasrud link

9/20/2019 02:27:35 pm

I said none of those things -- don't be so hypersensitive. Take a deep breath, calm down, and actually read the article.

Because all it says is don't be creepy. It is very creepy to flirt with or hit on someone who isn't interested. It's fine to introduce yourself. It's weird to try to force her to talk to you or start touching her when it's not very obvious she's into it.

If you don't want to date a fat girl, don't date a fat girl. I wouldn't date a fat dude, either. How could he possibly keep up with me on my multi-day hiking trips, surf adventures, etc?

I value kindness and politeness, but I don't always have the time, and I don't owe anyone shit. Especially someone who won't back off, even when I've clearly indicated I'm not interested.

Anonymous

9/22/2019 02:07:37 pm

"I wouldn't date a fat dude, either. How could he possibly keep up with me on my multi-day hiking trips, surf adventures, etc.?"

My college girlfriend and I would spend our "us" time on all-day hiking trips, back-woods biking, and whatever else could get us out of our dorm rooms. I helped her train for the rowing team in the offseason by being her middle and bowman. Mind you, this was when I was on a football scholarship which depended largely on a playing weight of 320 lbs, which, consequently, carried with it a body fat percentage of 32.

Away from other's prying eyes, we had a fun and loving relationship. We were able to enjoy each other's company. She was able to make me forget how fat, abnormal, slobbish and physically disgusting most girls made feel. However, when we were around her friends, and pretty much everyone else, people would pay backhanded compliments to us.

"Wow, YOU sure are a lucky guy!"..."It's refreshing to see opposites attract"..."Your beau is like a big teddy bear"..."You've got a whole lot of man to love!"

The insincerity and a patronizing words of these people really hurt. A lot. What made me such a freak to them that I wasn't worthy of dating my girlfriend?

Her friends asked her questions that were none of their business, but were so burning to them that they had to sacrifice some level of common decency and respect on their part just to find out. They asked her what she could possibly find so attractive about a guy with no jawline and such a large waistline. They asked her if she was dating me out desperation, pity, or lack of options. They asked her if any of the fat guy stereotypes were true, such as being sweaty, body odor, and other claims of poor hygiene. They even had the nerve to ask her about our sex life. How is it physically possible for a man of that size and shape to perform the act? Does he have ED because of his weight? How can you possibly overcome and look past his big stomach and body fat rubbing against you?

Most of all, "How does he even have the energy to have sex with you, let alone go out and enjoy other physical activities you enjoy?"
To their embarrassment, or not, she informed them that I was a starting offensive tackle, that I was no stranger to the weight room, and that I was perfectly capable of keeping up with her every aspect of our relationship--both inside and outside of the bedroom.

She heard it all the time. Even when she dumped those rude friends and got new friends, the judgements and attitudes were still the same.

That said, you'll have to excuse me if I have reservations about your premise of fat guys not keeping up with you. You'd be surprised how many of us can keep up, and even run circles around you in some activities. I do not believe you when you say your refusal to date a fat guy is based on his fitness. You don't want to date them because you find them physically unattractive, and this BS fitness argument is a convenient excuse for you to avoid the "shallow" label.

If you are physically repulsed by fat men, that's fine. That is your personal preference and you have the right to find them repulsive, but does it make it RIGHT to offer an obvious false reason for not finding them attractive and scolding people from inside your glass house that THEY are being "shallow jerks?" Does it make it right to say such derogatory things about men's bodies on a public forum while saying that they should feel good about themselves? Does it make it right to correlate "creepiness" and "lack of reciprocity" to unattractive men (even before their first approach), but give highly "attractive" men an exemption in the same setting?

P.S., I've never surfed, and I don't think that I have the body type for it. But even if I could surf, I wouldn't do it with someone who looked down their nose at me and made prejudicial statements because of my body. You sound just like the girls that asked my girlfriend those nasty questions. You may not realize it, but you're just catty, petty, and judgmental. I doubt it if a man wrote a piece criticizing the various things he didn't like about certain women.

Eva Glasrud link

9/24/2019 03:13:21 pm

Well, in that case, it sounds like your girlfriend had shitty friends. They must not have known her that well, to not even know that her boyfriend was on the football team (college sports are a HUGE time commitment, to the point that "student-athlete" can feel like a misnomer -- so how the heck would a caring friend miss that?). The questions they were asking her also sound super invasive and obnoxious and ignorant. These definitely sound like the types of girls that are unnecessarily cruel, and it sucks that both of you had to deal with them.

I've also dated guys with large waistlines who were energetic -- we biked around Lake Tahoe and played basketball together, and it blew my mind that he could accelerate faster than me, because basically no one can do that. We had a long and loving relationship that started on the basketball court.

The first time we met, we had a great conversation, but he got nervous and didn't ask for my number, then went home and told his housemates, "I met an amazing girl, and I'll probably never see her again."

The second time we met, several weeks later, he DID ask for my number... but his phone died that night, and he lost all his contacts. He told his housemates, "She's going to wonder why I didn't call, and I'll probably never see her again."

The third time we met, I was there with this other guy I knew. He was tall and handsome and muscular and slender. He seemed smart, but I didn't know him too well. There was definitely a physical attraction.

After the game, the first man invited both me and that hot, slender guy to get dinner with him. We said yes, because this guy was a really good athlete and it had been a fun game.

During that dinner, every time the "hot" guy opened his mouth, he got less attractive to me. He didn't say anything dumb -- he just wasn't nearly as smart or witty as the "fat" guy, who literally looked more physically attractive to me every time he said something I didn't know about neuroscience, or made a joke that was almost TOO clever.

And he continued getting more attractive to me every time I learned something new about him.

Had he approached me randomly in a bar -- you're right. I wouldn't have known we had any shared interests or activities, so who knows what would have happened. But the fact is, he didn't immediately start hitting on me or make me feel like the only reason he was talking to me was because he thought I was hot. He didn't assume he had no chance with me, just because I showed up at the gym that third night with someone who was more physically attractive (so it seemed -- like I said, every day, I found this guy more and more PHYSICALLY attractive). He had the confidence to ask us BOTH out to dinner, then let his light shine.

We dated for about a year, and it was wonderful, but ultimately didn't work out.

In other words, there are obviously exceptions, and getting to know someone is a good way to let them know you are an exception. The behavior of your girlfriend's friends was absolutely shitty, and I'm glad no one said anything like that to me, because I would have ripped them a new one.

Anonymous

9/22/2019 06:53:59 pm

* I doubt that you would like it if a man wrote a piece criticizing the various things he didn't like about certain women's body parts.

Eva Glasrud link

9/24/2019 02:54:03 pm

I'm not a social justice warrior. I think men are allowed to like or dislike whatever women's body parts they want, from stomach fat to small boobs to "lady dicks."

Anonymous

9/25/2019 08:52:00 am

This does not comport with your prior sentiment of people being "shallow jerks."

Make up your mind, and start making sense with what you're writing.

Eva Glasrud link

9/25/2019 12:48:25 pm

Hahaha, okay. :P

qmulus

10/8/2019 04:42:20 pm

>"But another part of the reason may be that attractive men simply have more experience talking to and flirting with women. Communication is hard and messy, and the only way to get good at it is through practice."

So how is this unnatractive man supposed to get good at flirting if his efforts are never reciprocated? How is he supposed to learn these skills if even his approaching is discouraged and/or rebuffed?

>"If you spend a lot of time watching porn and playing video games, you're not going to be as good at flirting or communicating as someone who goes out to bars, joins co-ed sports leagues, spends time pursuing hobbies, and makes plans to meet up with friends."

How is this man supposed to learn how to flirt in these situations if his clumsy attempts can get him labelled as creepy among those said circles? Should he just say, "I'm sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable. I'm just not very good at this. But, I'm learning."?

>"Adding to the potential perception of creepiness is that it IS strange that someone who was so very clearly "not in my league" would approach me, because it almost kind of implies a disregard for reciprocity or consent?"

Are you implying that your reciprocity and/or consent to be engaged in conversation is determined beforehand simply based on a man's physical attractiveness? Any man who is "so very clearly" not in your league is in violation for even attempting to take a shot?

That's like saying, "He should have the social intelligence to know that he isn't on my level and that he has no chance, so why is he even trying? This is a violation of my right not to be bothered by ugly men."

>"That's also why I suggested unattractive guys take a different approach. Instead of instantly hitting on a girl, show her how witty, smart, and awesome you are. Get her interested in something other than your looks, THEN ask her out."

And how does he even start down that path if he can't even approach her and engage her in conversation?

Besides, I don't know what dating is for you, but for me, it IS a process for getting to know her better. Otherwise, how is a man supposed to make it clear that he is interested in her on more than a plutonic level?

Just taking the time get to know without any sexual/romantic or even flirtatious component is likely to land him in the friendzone.

>"That's why I suggest to men who aren't "conventionally attractive" that they get to know and appreciate someone as a real person before hitting on them. "

You're assuming that they don't already have an intrinsic sense of appreciation for the woman in question. You're implying that the act of getting to know her on a strictly plutonic will result in her returning his interest. I can tell you from experience that is RARELY the case.

2/19/2020 07:27:27 pm

"And she shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable and objectified by some creepy dude she doesn't even like just because you were too lazy or emotional to examine and correctly interpret the interactions."

And what about guys with legitimate social disabilities, like high-functioning autism or Asperger's Syndrome? Guys who, through no fault of their own, have their brains hardwired in such a way that being able to examine and interpret other people's emotions is vastly more difficult than "normal" people. To aspies, the author's above comment is basically abelist.

Eva Glasrud link

2/20/2020 12:41:01 pm

You can call me ableist all you want, but you will NEVER hear me say that women need to tolerate discomfort to make someone else comfortable, even if that someone else is somehow more "oppressed" than women.

Men who care about not making women uncomfortable and coming across as creepy can learn some basic social rules that will make them more comfortable and less creepy to be around, regardless of whether or not they're on the spectrum.

James

2/21/2020 05:22:25 pm

Good day, Eva.

From what I can see from your hypocritical and narcissistic content, you clearly despise the existence of men you consider "beneath you". You have made it very clear that you consider creepy and pushy/""rapey"" behaviors from men with the attractiveness such as James Bond acceptable, while if average Joe attempted to seduce you, you would call it rape and send him to prison.

Do you see the cognitive dissonance you are engaging in, Eva? You are actually boldly proclaiming that "objectifying", intrusive or stalkerish comments or behaviors are acceptable as long as it is from an attractive male, but God forbid if an unattractive man did the same.

You are not pointing out how these unwanted behaviors are unacceptable in their entirety, you are confirming the fact that you believe that these creepy behaviors are acceptable for attractive men and unacceptable for unattractive men. You hold more handsome men to a different standard, you are enabling rapey and very dodgy behavior to be tolerated from certain men just because they attract you.

Thank you very much for confirming your morally bankrupt hypocrisy.

Eva Glasrud link

2/25/2020 08:34:23 pm

James, I think you forgot to read the article before commenting... I wouldn't tolerate creepy behavior from any man, no matter how attractive he is, and that's clearly stated in this and other posts.

Jason

3/6/2020 11:49:17 am

Here’s a hypothetical situation that men face Jow would you resolve it.

I moved to Australia 20 years ago from Canada

Imagine I’m on a train in Sydney

I see a woman I think is beautiful She sits two rows down

She’s reading my favorite book & wearing my favorite NHL teams hat

I’m on an outing so I probably won’t be on this train again Sydney is huge so if she gets off the train I’ll probably never see her again

How can I approach her without being seen as creepy & possibly being reported to a police man

Eva Glasrud link

3/7/2020 10:17:45 am

This one is easy.

Approaching a woman to say, "You're beautiful" is a creepy, boring non-starter. How is she even supposed to respond to that? "Thanks! Here's my number in case you want to fuck me later!"

In this situation, you can approach her to say, "I love that book, especially the part where _____," OR, "That's my favorite hockey team, and you believe the recent thing that happened with them?"

There are a million ways to start and continue this conversation, since you have shared interests. There are also non-forced, non-creepy reasons for you to get together again, since you have shared interests. "I'm always excited to talk about this book -- if you want to discuss it over coffee when you're finished, let me know!" "The next three games are away games -- I like to watch at the Blablabla Bar, if you'd like to join me."

It's not creepy to have read the same book or like the same team and mention it to her -- especially if you show concern for her autonomy and boundaries by saying something like, "I hope I'm not interrupting," or, "I know the book is amazing, so feel free to cut me off at any time so you can get back to reading!"

It WOULD be creepy if you did something like:

Stood/sat WAY too close to her
Started touching her
Followed her off the train
Said something sexual, uncomfortable or inappropriate
Persisted after she said no or indicated disinterest. (eg, Her: "I really want to finish this chapter." You: "BLA BLA BLA I DON'T CARE IMMA KEEP TALKING AT YOU BECAUSE YOUR DISINTEREST DOESN'T BOTHER MEEEE;" Her: "Maybe I'll watch a game with you someday." You: "WHEN? WHY CAN'T YOU WATCH THIS NEXT ONE WITH ME? I CAN COME TO YOU IF YOU WANT."

Dude

3/18/2020 11:47:31 am

I agree with the central point. The defining element of whether attention is harassment is whether the attention is desired or not. Even as a romantically unsuccessful dude, I've had romantic attention that I would have rathered not have, so I have some inkling of the feeling.

That said, I think you overstate the case of intelligence, good values, etc. to compensate. For an unattractive man who hasn't had any positive experiences in dating spending time getting to know women first (nevermind the fact we're strongly encouraged not to do this with the intention of finding a romantic partner) so our positive qualities can be seen is a good way to always wind up being the "friend" (likely just on that "let's just be friends" sense that isn't actually fruendship) and never the "boyfriend." This is where the sense of feeling burned about the "friendzone" springs from. It's an existence that's frustrating, emasculating and humiliating; it's hard not to be bitter, especially when you can sit on the sidelines and watch attractive men who don't possess these qualities you were struggling to entice with not struggle at all.

Eva Glasrud link

3/21/2020 11:42:37 am

"He must be rich," is a thing I've overheard people say when they see the man I'm dating and observe (sometimes loudly) that he is not as attractive as I am. No... he's just smarter than pretty much anyone else I've ever met, kinder and more compassionate and funnier and more exciting to be with than other people I know. For me, attractiveness is a pleasant bonus, but it's not a priority.

I know that for some (typically less intelligent) women, this isn't the case, and I understand your frustration.

What I will say is:

>> "nevermind the fact we're strongly encouraged not to do this with the intention of finding a romantic partner"

Not by me. It's totally fine to get to know someone with the hope of eventually dating them. But ideally you don't, like, start hating them if they reject you. That's what makes so many women feel devalued. I think where a lot of guys go wrong, too, is they'll, like, help a girl pack up her whole house and move or something, then get mad when she doesn't want to date them, as though they're entitled to sex for favors and kindness. If you don't explicitly say, "I'll pay for dinner if you kiss me goodnight," you have no right to be disappointed.

But it sounds like you're not the type of person who does these things. So go ahead and get to know people better with the hope of finding a romantic partner -- you get the green light from me! (Though I don't promise there is consensus on this point.)

>> "our positive qualities can be seen is a good way to always wind up being the "friend" (likely just on that "let's just be friends" sense that isn't actually fruendship) and never the "boyfriend."

I'm sure this is going to sound obnoxious, but love is a numbers game. I have, like, 2,200 friends (if Facebook is to be believed), and I've only fallen in love with, like, 7 of them. That means the VAST majority of the men I know are just my friends.

Again, this is supposed to be encouraging, but I feel like it's just going to sound annoying. Saying it, anyway, because it's true.

Here's a question -- and you don't have to answer. You can just think about it. What IS it that you believe you have to offer? Sounds like you know you have some positive qualities, you just don't consider your looks to be one of them, right? So what are the positive ones?

Doing self-affirmation exercises might be helpful if you're experiencing bitterness or self-doubt. When a physically-less-attractive-than-me guy strikes up a conversation with me and he has a certain, easy confidence (not cockiness, not arrogance, not negging or mind games -- just the aura of a man who KNOWS he has something to offer), it's actually intriguing. It makes me want to learn more about him.

Star Fall

11/26/2020 11:12:20 am

@eva

Personality when used to rate potential partners is simply a euphemism for looks. Just gonna give you some data here instead of suggesting it like I previously had:

http://cdn.okccdn.com/blog/humanexperiments/looks-v-personality.png

Try to think more about real data when you answer people.

Joe

2/21/2021 09:29:05 pm

Star Fall, the data you've posted is interesting, but you must be very careful about what conclusions you can draw from it. This is especially true given that the data is from an online dating site and may not transfer over to a real-life scenario well.

Tons of people use online dating sites to window shop for mates. You can't really assume that because they're using the dating site that they genuinely want to meet someone. Many just want to get the rush of some attention or imagine the fantasy of that perfect person finding them. This I believe is one of the reasons why the data skews toward showing people as being very picky. Also, as many others have pointed out the sheer volume of options automatically makes people choosier, a phenomenon that would be less likely to occur in a small local bar.

More importantly though, I would say given how beautifully linear that graph is, that it just proves that you cannot gauge a person's personality by reading a dating profile. Personality is complex, a few sentences about loving your cat and a list of hobbies isn't really going to capture it.

My interpretation of the data is simply that people see the image on the profile and make a snap first impression judgment, exactly as you'd expect. Then when you ask those same people to evaluate that profile's personality there is so little information to go on that they just enter the same number they came up with from looking at the profile picture. Anyone who's ever tried online dating knows just how many profiles say, "Just ask," or "I'll fill this out later," or are simply just left blank. How could anyone really gauge some one else's personality through a dating site?

Anyway, that's my interpretation and you're welcome to yours. Just saying I wouldn't look at that data and use it to justify giving up on dating if you happen to be unattractive. Instead I'd urge you to go out and do some field work and see if the results from the real world really match up.

Think of all the people you've known that have found happy relationships. Were they all 8+ on the attractiveness scale? Probably not given how statistically unlikely that would be. Given that, am I to believe based on the graph you posted that all those average and unattractive people that have found love, also all have average or terrible personalities?

Grindstone

4/4/2020 09:51:34 pm

You talk a big game but you strike me as a typical narcissist in the method that you use to respond to people but completely ignore major points of their argument.

A lot of great points have been made by people in this thread, and instead of addressing those points you instead use them as an opportunity to refer to anecdotal statements that only tangentially relates to the issues and hypothetical situations being raised.

It is possible that you are incapable of empathizing with both sides of the argument being raised, instead choosing to create these typical self-congratulatory responses that ultimately only serve to demonstrate a level of shallowness that is, unfortunately, all too common in this day and age.

Eva Glasrud link

4/5/2020 01:33:18 pm

Honey... you've done the same thing everyone else who failed to make their point did.

A lot of great points have been made, huh? Yet you failed to name a single one.

How am I supposed to respond to that, other than with a giggle?

Social

4/10/2020 09:04:08 am

This problem is solved when women approach men and ask them out....but they won't. *shrug*

Eva Glasrud link

6/8/2020 11:05:01 am

Some will. I wouldn't hesitate to ask someone out if I found him interesting. In fact, I would go so far as to say if I didn't ask, I wasn't interested.

Truth Bringer

5/31/2020 02:27:33 am

So basically what you're saying is; if a person is born ugly, they will never get to experience happiness. Seriously, why bother letting them spend a lifetime wondering why they don't get to be happy? With this type of distortion and unfair bias, basically what you're saying is; "Ugly people may as well kill themselves."

How about attractive people get over themselves...
This is one of the many reasons humans are disgusting in general.

Eva Glasrud link

6/8/2020 11:12:53 am

I'm not sure where you read that, but it wasn't on this website.

On this website, I offer actionable advice about how to reframe your thinking and improve your ability to talk to and attract women. Remember when Professor Moody told Harry he had to play to his strengths? So do you. If you're not physically attractive, you can't hope to attract women the same way a very physically attractive man would.

The other thing to remember is, being physically attractive isn't enough. It's enough to get her attention and spark her interest, but if you open your mouth and prove you're stupid, disrespectful, arrogant, or otherwise undesirable, it's not like she's going to accept all those negative things just because you're hot. Most women would pick the super intelligent, kind, accomplished, interesting, or funny guy over the hot guy with nothing interesting to say who just wants to bench and do bicep curls and drink beer all the time.

For you, it sounds like the problem might be that you're already defeated before you even open your mouth. When you say things like "humans are disgusting in general" and "attractive people need to get over themselves," it tells me a lot about how pleasant it would be to interact or build a life with you.

Honestly -- and I say this with love -- maybe YOU need to get over YOURself.

Jay

8/15/2020 01:31:39 pm

Actually, it is you typical dumb fat white feminist Nazi trash. Bitches like this think they are all strong and tough but look for a mangina type man to defend them

You white feminists are nothing but the scum of this earth and probably the greatest threat to humanity.

You are nothing but a piece of shit. You are just lucky the white feminist movement exists but one day it will end.

Paul

8/30/2020 09:39:47 am

But as a physically unattractive guy, I have zero chance to even establish myself as attractive in another way, because, as another commentator said above, “[c]urrently we live in a society where women are encouraged to be as shitty as possible while men are policed for even the most minor infractions.“ Another element of this is the widespread shallowness of society in general - many (most?) women simply don’t give physically unattractive guys any chance at all. We might become platonic friends based on one or more shared interests, etc., but there is *never* a chance of anything other than that. Guys are often told to show their romantic / sexual interest in a woman they find attractive in the first 2-3 interactions, but for us unattractive guys, that appears to be a one way ticket to rejection or worse... In the face of all this, I don’t bother expressing interest in women at all.

Casa Jova

6/7/2020 09:48:23 am

There are a couple of themes worth addressing against the point men are making on a recurring basis here.

First, I think there is a lot of self-denial about the inherent ability to read a woman's interest. I think pretending that the only way to cement whether or not a woman is interested in you is by asking her (or asking her out), is the assault itself. Feeling that every interaction with an attractive woman is a missed opportunity solely because you weren't assertive enough to make the first move is an understandable insecurity but think about it. Think about it statistically and from simple observation. Moving on a woman, cold, rarely translates into a date or otherwise, if you are not considered an attractive opportunity, which is most men, by nature's design. There is no misunderstanding, there is no mistake in the read, there is not some peripheral oversight of cognizance about your existence, and "playing hard to get" is too much more a myth than fact to bank a move on.

If you choose to pretend none of that is true, or if you are emotionally unable to accept it, consider that most other unappealing men do too. Which translates, for women, into "the problem of the collective". Consider that in your polite sanitized version of events you spot an attractive woman (probably taking note of no surrounding competition which emboldens you all the more - the number one source of dissuasion against socially fragile men is the overt appearance of interaction with another man, in any given situation. I often joke that it's a problem if the sexiest quality you find in a woman is the fact she's standing around alone -- but I digress). You spot an attractive woman, you politely try to get to know her better or just ask her out, she politely giggles and declines, and you tip your hat and stroll away. You smile and think this is all just fine and dandy, the way that it should be. You were not entitled to her positive response, but, you fail to acknowledge you felt entitled to the script, the protocol, the ask, the process -- all without any level-headed understanding of her interest in you at the outset. Consider that a woman, particularly an attractive one, has to put up with those tone deaf advances Every. Single. Hour.

Suddenly your polished view about how it should be doesn't seem so perfectly reasonable, does it? By feeling entitled to the script, you've just added to a woman's noise pollution, and yes, some women acquire, over time, a pretty hard line against it. In your world a pretty woman should just sit around all day politely batting away advances one after the other.

No, sorry. As men, we have an obligation to develop or just acknowledge the nuanced unspoken rules of attraction and interest and with some common sense, filter our strategies accordingly. The more skilled one becomes at this the more appealing he becomes.

And by the way, men are rarely "unattractive" in the same way that women may be considered unattractive. Men are more likely to be considered "unappealing". And the cold social approach is probably one of the biggest red flags that contributes to the "unappealing" status. Women do not "meet" men through some random conversation on the street. Being approached for random "get to know you better" conversation is out of band from the norm for an attractive woman. A woman who is otherwise, rightly, conditioned to grant her attention to men who can successfully enter and settled within her discretionary social circles.

Jay

8/15/2020 01:39:03 pm

"he politely giggles and declines, and you tip your hat and stroll away"

If a guy has a long conversation with a girl, then the girl does in FACT have an obligation to go out with the guy you cock sucking pile of trash.

"Consider that a woman, particularly an attractive one, has to put up with those tone deaf advances Every. Single. Hour."

That is FALSE. There are other studies where it is noted that they don't get approached enough.

"conditioned to grant her attention to men who can successfully enter and settled within her discretionary social circles."
So are saying a girl needs her "friends" approval to sleep with a guy. If that is the case, the girl and her friends need to be beaten to a pulp Negan style.

And you are a dumb piece of shit as well since you are a white knight defending these white feminists scum

Mike

8/23/2020 08:40:42 am

What assault? Someone call the police!!!

Just kidding.

1. To your first point:

You’re not wrong that most women won’t be interested in most men. But that shouldn’t stop a guy from trying. Even if you’re not Brad Pitt (or whoever the current sex symbol is), that doesn’t mean you should never cold approach when you see a woman you’d like to know better.

About a third to a half of the women interested in you will NEVER do anything to let you know. Not a single thing. And this becomes more and more true the better looking the woman is.

As a general rule, the better looking a woman is (or believes she is) the less likely she is to give off any obvious or even subtle signs of interest.

Interesting side note: As a general rule, she also gets hit on less and less the more she goes over a certain threshold of conventional attractiveness. The other guy responding to you may be a little unstable and off on certain points... but he's absolutely right about that.

In regards to women who do give you signs of interest:

The majority of men will miss these signs a large part of the time.

It's not denial on men's part. We legit don't read these kinds of things as well as women do.

Anyone with any social experience knows this. It's generally accepted and a readily observable fact.

And yes, this applies to guys with skill or “game” and lots of experience as well. Sure, they read women better than most men... but that's really not saying very much.

And it's a far, far cry from getting it right all the time.

How many times have you heard a woman say something like "What the hell? I looked at him twice in two minutes. Why hasn't he approached me yet? Is he gay or something?"

I've heard variations of this dozens of times - and I bet you have too.

But I'll also bet you still don't believe me. Fine. Go talk to your local hot guy. He'll tell you story after story of women who were interested in him for months (or even years!)... and he only found out about it much later after a mutual friend told him she was into him all that time.

She either gave him subtle signs of interest he didn't catch or no signal any rational person would consider a sign of interest at all.

It happens far, far more often than you would think.

And while we're talking about good-looking men, hot guys get rejected too. It's not as often and sometimes not as harsh as what average-looking guys go through, but it happens.

If men are only supposed to ask women out when it doesn't make the woman uncomfortable or cause “noise-pollution”, and even the best-looking guys with the most experience get rejected from time-to-time... well, it just goes to show how unrealistic and unworkable the whole concept is for most average men.

You also wrote in the first section that moving on a woman cold rarely leads to the outcome most men want. That's true - but unimportant and irrelevant. More on that in a few minutes (under section 3).

2. Regarding your suggestion for men:

Many, many more men would die as virgins if they waited for obvious signals or signs of interest before shooting their shot.

The majority of men will never get hit on in their life. Most rarely get subtle signs of interest from a woman ever - and certainly not on an even semi-regular basis.

They'll never have a chance to develop the skills you're talking about. They just don't get those signals from women often enough to develop them.

But what about the women who give obvious signals to men?

Only women well below your league do that (or women close to your league with mental health issues, an odd fetish, or the rare very dominant personality). It's just not something the average guy gets to experience on a regular basis.

3. In regards to your point about "noise pollution":

Women DO NOT have a right not to be hit on or approached (at least in most circumstances).

Period.

And it sure as hell does not constitute an "assault" to be approached or hit on by a stranger in public or a coworker. That's an absurd misuse of language.

Now, once someone's made it clear they're not interested, of course they have every right to be left alone... but even in that case bothering them afterwords doesn't rise anywhere near the level of an "assault" or "noise pollution".

It's ethically wrong to continue when they've clearly said no and in some cases legally wrong... but calling it assault goes way, way too far.

Talk about a dramatic choice of words!!!!.

And yes, it is rude to interrupt a women when she's in the middle of something. The author of the article has a solid point there... but it's not rude or creepy to approach women in public or on your job generally speaking.

It's only rude when you interrupt them when they're in the middle of something OR when you continue to act flirty after they've made it clear they're not interested.

4. You use the term "entitled". You say men think in an entitled way for expectin

Mike

8/23/2020 08:42:48 am

Continued:

4. You use the term "entitled". You say men think in an entitled way for expecting things to follow a certain script. Some men may think that... but I think most men know full well a "nuclear rejection" (where a woman calls you names, laughs, or mocks you) is possible as well.

Women have every right to reject men harshly. They also have every right to ignore them and not interact with them at all. Most men know this.

Sometimes one response or the other may be necessary to make things clear. It might not be nice... but it's well within the bounds of fair play.

What isn't within the bounds of fair play is slandering someone and calling them creepy/filing a complaint with HR when they did nothing particularly offensive or socially uncalibrated. That’s not exactly what you’re talking about… but it does tie in to some of the other comments other people have made on here.

Speaking of which:

It's far, far more socially uncalibrated for a woman to expect not to be hit on in public than it is for a man to tactfully hit on women in public.

Does any average looking woman in her right mind think she's not going to get hit on by guys she doesn't like in that way? That's far more out of touch with reality than some nerdy/akward guy you don't know stuttering as he asks you to go see a movie.

It makes you uncomfortable as a woman? That's life. Socializing is uncomfortable at times for everyone. And that's how men and women are wired and raised to be... and we can only change it so much.

NO ONE has the right not to be hit on in a semi-tactful way or approached at work or as they go about their day. The whole idea is ridiculous.

You do have the legal and ethical right not to be harassed. But let's not twist the definition of harassment here.

Harassment only happens when:

1. The behavior happens over and over again after you've clearly said no (to the same person, not people in general)

or

2. It's behavior of a sexual nature done with the express intention of causing you physical or psychological distress.

or

3. It's so far outside of social norms it shocks the person to the point of distress - even if the intent to shock wasn't there.

Just to clarify: an ugly coworker or customer asking you out isn't outside the social norms. It happens. You may not be thrilled about it, but it's not in and of itself harassment in any way, shape, or form.

Pressuring you into a date or sexual activity is harassment. Groping you before you even talk to the person for the first time is as well, etc.

Asking a coworker out - even when it's akward and unwanted on his or her part - does not constitute harassment. Nor does asking a cashier or waitress for her number.

And yes, some behavior is so lacking in tact it's shocking. Some types of flirtation definitely cross a line. Usually it involves overt sexuality in an inappropriate setting. But that's different than just a basic and at least somewhat tactful, well-intentioned approach.

Sending a dick pic to a coworker you've never spoken to is over the line. Way over.

Telling her she's pretty right off the bat and asking her out for coffee isn't.

The latter situation is typically akward AF for both parties and rarely works out for the guy... but that kind of behavior is neither unethical nor does it constitute harassment.

And ladies - you can usually make it clear you're not interested without being rude or acting like a guy is beneath you. You don't have to, of course, but it's probably your best choice in most environments (both ethically - meaning don't be spiteful to a guy who meant no harm - and for your own safety. I realize some men aren't stable when you reject them)

To sum it up:

You don't have a right not to feel uncomfortable by being hit on or approached by people you're not attracted to. It's part of life.

You do have the right to avoid continuing that uncomfortable experience once you've made it clear you're not interested.

4. You brought up approaching women in the street. You imply most men should never do it and should only meet women through social circles. I'm not so sure about that.

I don't know where you live, but in most parts of the U. S. women meet men through random conversations on the street all the time.

It's not the most common way to meet people, sure. But I know from my own experience it happens.

A plurality of couples meet through social circles. Around 40 percent of relationships start this way (according to some figures I saw just the other day, anyway).

But couples meet in public all the time as well. The stats say it's around 5 to 10 percent of couples or so.

Speaking just from my own experience, five of my last six girlfriends have been: a barista who waited on me, a waitress I met at a diner, a cute little lady who talked to me first on the subway, a woman waiting behind me in line at the local CVS, and the manager of another coffee shop (different from the first GF) who I stopped

mike

8/23/2020 08:45:17 am

who I stopped to talk to on her smoke break.

I realize my experiences may or may not be typical... but meeting people in public really does happen. It’s not “out of band from the norm (was that a typo? Just curious about the phrase)” at all.

Side note: I'm starting to think I have a thing for women who handle money!!!!

You know those people that call you and tell you you won the lottery in Nigeria? Why do you think they keep calling people?

Because the scam works. It may not be the highest percentage shot for them, but it doesn’t need to be. The same thing goes for boldly talking to a woman you just met in a public place. It’s never guaranteed to work… but it does work often enough that men keep doing it.

5. To give you some credit: your point isn't entirely without some merit. Most men do shoot a bit higher than their league - at least a portion of the time.

But so what. There's nothing morally or legally wrong with that. A woman who expects to never get hit on by men she doesn't want isn't well-adjusted to reality.

That's basic social skills 101 for women. Women need to learn how to reject men early in life - just like men need to learn to get over the fear of rejection. That's a big part of social skills 101 for men.

It's not a big deal to reject someone, nor should it be a big deal to get rejected. Yes, it sucks sometimes and it can hurt emotionally (for both parties), but that's a part of life.

As long a man doesn't persist to the point of harassment, it's well within the social norms to hit on women he's not sure are interested - as it should be. The guy has no way of knowing most of the time whether a woman will say yes to him or not.

And he essentially only has one sure way to find out.

But even if he thinks she'll say no:

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH TAKING A SHOT AT SOMEONE YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE VIRTUALLY NO CHANCE WITH.

PERIOD.

The author of the post wrote that if a man isn't sure if a woman would say yes to his advances, he shouldn't ask her out.

That's not reality, unfortunately. You don't have a right to be socially comfortable at all times. Even extremely socially well-calibrated, charming, and experienced men sometimes struggle to gauge a women’s level of interest. It happens.

Points of view you don't agree with can make you uncomfortable. Just ask the Trump supporters and the Biden supporters.

Should we outlaw free speech because some people won't like what some people will say and will feel uncomfortable?

Should we outlaw songs that make people feel sad? They make me feel uncomfortable sometimes when I hear them in the supermarket (I'm not joking here at all. My supermarket needs a new background soundtrack.).

A much higher percentage of men would die as virgins and many, many women would never get married if we all waited around until the woman made her interest obvious and the man picked up on it.

I sure as hell hope that never becomes the norm.

And I say that as a man who strongly prefers when women approach me first (which only happens occasionally, unfortunately). But realistically, that's just not workable for the vast majority of heterosexual romantic/potentially romantic interactions.....

Unless you want to set up arranged marriages or a system with lots of blind dates or something out of left field. But the hell with that.

Thanks for reading this far if you're still with me. To paraphrase the great Mark Twain: I would have made this post shorter and more to the point.... but I didn't have the time!!!!

Mike

8/23/2020 09:09:04 am

One last thing - if a woman thinks you're "creepy" just for showing an interest in her, you really shouldn't care.

Leave her alone once she says no or you get that vibe she's not interested thought... but you really shouldn't be concerned with what other people think.

The only time this truly becomes relevent is when it might hurt you on your job. That's why, while I don't think cold approaching a coworker is creepy or inherently sexual harassment, as a practical matter I agree with the author of the original post in one sense:

You generally shouldn't get involved with people you work with romantically or sexually. No need to piss in your backyard ( or however the phrase goes).

You have plenty of other places to meet women.

Hari

3/12/2021 09:22:24 pm

You're speaking my mind Mike. This article at best misused language and filled with unrealistic expectations, and at worst poisoned with a big huge of self-entirlement. Welcome to one of the strong forts of today's men shaming culture.

Daddy govt

7/1/2020 03:29:04 pm

Eva Glasrud link

7/4/2020 08:59:11 am

I can tell from your first sentence that you are overemotional and incapable of reason. But I'll try to address a few of your rantings, anyway.

>> "until you respond to cat observer we don't believe you are not just helping in pushing an agenda to destroy society."

1. I did respond to every point "cat observer" made. But it sounds like you're really paranoid and should maybe talk to someone.

>> ?I've seen u get destroyed by several very logical comments that you actively avoided like you probably avoid fat guys, but tell your fat girl friends that they look beautiful & that a man ain't a man if he doesn't like her...yet u spread this indoctrination article for lil girls to believe this is civilized behavior towards males."

You're silly if you think that. No one's "destroyed" me. The rest of this... these sound like the disorganized rantings of someone who should talk to someone.

>> "Still, women do nothing but try to get other men to point guns at other men about what they should & shouldn't find attractive. All for their benefit while having the same kind of men protect & enforce their own subjugation so that the attractiveness of the women, or even her character, is not the main focus."

?????????

>> "Women want men to defend women's right to attack ugly men to death as if those same men have never been rejected by a wmn before. I guess vagina use is supposed to pay men for going against their own interests by women's standards. They believe sex is supposed to be worth a man accepting his own slavery to access to sex."

Get help.

>> "Using sex to criminalize men, by men, all because you rely on men going against each other for sexual value is not supposed to allow for women to be murderers. They don't kill enough thru abortions? Wonder the real reason for those btw, is it because it was a fearful mistake by a woman who would be embarassed she slept with such a low value man? As if that makes her ugly?"

Get help.

In fact, there's really nothing in this comment comprehensible enough to respond to. It's very disorganized and confused sounding, with almost no basis in reality. I think you should try talking to someone more qualified than me.

Daddy govt

10/14/2020 10:11:55 am

"I can tell from your first sentence that you are overemotional and incapable of reason. But I'll try to address a few of your rantings, anyway."-

I actuality agree. But I stand behind what I said. I could've said it in a more friendly way but that's what you got.

"1. I did respond to every point "cat observer" made. But it sounds like you're really paranoid and should maybe talk to someone."-

2. I thank you for your concern. I would like more than a negative critique of my writing skills. How about you re-read my whole comment?

"You're silly if you think that. No one's "destroyed" me. The rest of this... these sound like the disorganized rantings of someone who should talk to someone."-

I call getting every point you were trying to make in the article completely debunked as agenda based rhetoric, having your reasoning for the "warning/advice/argument" destroyed. Some comments completely destroy a part 2 to the article.

I felt my comment was the most in-depth, detailed, & into the core of why a person felt this was appropriate to put out into the manosphere. Several comments negated the whole intention of the article in my opinion.

The comments showed the writing to be a display of female privilege in being able to socially bully men. Then you write an article justifying it & giving instructions for men. While quite noticeably, giving none for women in better handling their over-emotional states & lack of coping in social interactions.

If you don't think they're doing that in this case, that is why they're doing that. Cause there's no actual ability to critique a woman's emotional iq without an given accommodation, right?

I'm sorry. Were there more options for women to handle unwanted advances in the workplace in a more civil way mentioned in the writing?

Call ME out on it but not your ladies on the platform. Noticing that as well.

"?????????"-

This is the part where I felt you really wanted to go tell HR on me. This might have been too much for the female brain. Kinda like not taking pride in attacking men for trying to be men seems to be too much for some women.

By how they, you know, go to a job & try to get a guy fired for finding her interesting enough to talk to like a masculine man has to do! Not to mention mess with a mans money over your opinion of him.

That's excessive & if women don't see that as such, they're running game and lying for the image. Not very civilized of the "ladies" at all in my opinion.

"Get help"-

That's an opinion that you have. Not law, so don't get happy. Yet what did I say that was untrue. This is why men die sooner than women. The stress of dealing with their inability to understand logic.

"Get help"-

If you didn't get that gem, I think you're the one that may need help. They do say women live in their own little worlds, even with big families & a fulfilling life. Going over your head does not mean wrong.

"In fact, there's really nothing in this comment comprehensible enough to respond to. It's very disorganized and confused sounding, with almost no basis in reality. I think you should try talking to someone more qualified than me."-

What stood out to me about this was
"basis in reality." As if that means I said something untrue lol. Running from the way it's said doesn't change that it applies. There are reasonable, valid, pertinent points that I stand by.

Here's your basis in reality: I'm at work at my job at Walmart. I notice the couples & I notice the women are really comfortable mingling with the men who are in upper management. The managers are approaching them & flirting in front of everyone. Witnessing this i take it upon myself to try to socialize a lil more as I am an introvert.

At this time my I was reading articles like this one. I saw somewhere that said men who have women as friends are more attractive to women. I try to talk to a female peer who I've helped & talked to before, (I trained her so I was comfortable) & simply asked her: "what are you up to when you get off?"

I get reported the next day, & when I see her she avoids me. I later see her chatting it up with one of the managers & later after reporting for a 1on1 with a manager about my "harassment." I later see the same female coworker who reported me, getting into a car of one of the managers.

Clearly getting a ride because I noticed she didn't have a car. (Didnt even say much to her ever, she was new so all of it was noticeable) It has a basis in reality that I can be reported if I talk to a coworker in a way she doesn't like.

Or if she assumes I like her & wants to discourage my efforts in a cerebral, but noncivilized way in not being able to find out if that was even the case. It has a basis in reality, that she wanted the male attn of the manager & I was in her way in her opinion.

How else do you explain the response to my socializing? She chooses to do that in response to my treating her like a woman & being a man. She did not want the situation to occur, bu

Eva Glasrud link

10/14/2020 08:53:57 pm

I won't try to reason with you, because you' obviously rather play the victim than figure out how to behave in a way that isn't entitled and creepy, but re: the Walmart thing. I wasn't there, so I can't say for sure what happened, but here's what I think based on what you've said:

1. Sounds like you moved a little too fast. I wouldn't ask someone I worked with out right away. I'd be friendly with them and talk to them at work for a long time before trying to hang out outside of work.

2. Is it possible you were creepy-sounding when you asked her about getting off?

3. Probably the reason they feel comfortable getting rides from the manager is because the manager didn't ask them out. Having playful rapport isn't the same as asking someone out. Playful rapport is light and fun; getting asked out is uncomfortable.

Don't shit where you eat. Find a new place to pick up girls.

Jay

8/15/2020 01:44:43 pm

"I think all your comments should be canceled for being ugly"

That is how ALL white feminists women are. They are Nazis and ugly in many ways.

This MeToo garbage was created by white feminist nazi women as a plan to exterminate regular looking and ugly men. The idea of the movement is to have only a few attractive aka effeminate muscle men alive.

Jay

8/15/2020 01:04:40 pm

Firstly, this woman Eva is a disgusting Fat bodied subhuman SLOB.

Firstly, girls DO in FACT have an obligation to at MINIMUM talk to a regular man if he made the first move.

Yeah and if girls go for the bad boy "tall and handsome" type, they DO deserve to be physically abused. That is the girl fault 100%. If you go for the drug addicted man, rather than an intellectual man with hobbies, then you DESERVE it.

Also, this girl FAILED science, but opposites do in fact ATTRACT based on electricity. The only reason society got messed up is due to fat slobs like Eva that encourage girls to go for effeminate men aka the ones that are "tall and handsome" but run away when faced with a smaller guy packing heat.

These white feminists must be forced onto some desert island or blasted away to Pluto where they won't last too long.

10/4/2020 04:57:29 pm

Even if women were forced to talk to men, it wouldn't affect you at all because you're not a man. You're a boy packing nothing but failure.

Sam

9/9/2020 01:09:15 pm

If your a feminist, and if you complain about being harassed, then you are an ignorant little bitch

Eva Glasrud link

9/9/2020 11:21:25 pm

If my a feminist what, now?

Sam, it's quite obvious how you happened upon this post. Someone called you creepy. I need only to read your bizarre, angry, disorganized comment to understand why.

You should reread the post and try to follow the advice in it. It might help with your anger issues and persecution complex.

Allen

10/2/2020 11:20:11 am

So your advice to a short (5’5”) not-conventionally attractive introverted shy guy, your advice would basically be never to approach any woman because I just don’t have a chance?

Thanks - got it.

Eva Glasrud link

10/4/2020 01:28:43 pm

Yeah, that's TOTALLY what I said! Good job reading the article before commenting!!

(/sarcasm)

Tipsy

10/4/2020 04:48:40 pm

It's hilarious to see all these dudes desperately trying to sound intelligent, while writing different variations of the same thing, which is:
"You're wrong about about men. I'm right about women. I know this for a fact bcuz a bunch of dudes, who also have zero experience with women, said so."

Tairu

10/14/2020 05:33:32 am

Yet.. Here you are as well. With the need to make that self-gratifying comment. Way to male shame. I got a good feeling these attn seeking articles will stop now. All because of your great comment. Thks

Damond

10/24/2020 07:14:03 am

The best thing to do is to not talk to women at all man.. Stay to yourself, it's not worth it, they're not worth it...
We are just cursed to be here on this earth and it would be easier if the man above and took us away.

Eva Glasrud link

10/24/2020 07:19:37 am

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Omg, I thought this was satire for a second, but I think you're being serious.

Just some feedback on this: the reason it's not worth it for you to talk to women is because you have the mentality of a helpless, immature little child. Women aren't into that. Women like MEN who feel a sense of autonomy and accountability in the world, not helpless, broken little boys who think they'd be better off dead.

Follow the advice in my article. It could help.

Damond Moore

10/24/2020 08:18:38 am

And second of all, maturity hasn't gotten me anywhere if for the simple fact that I'm unattractive. So kick your bull shit to a sucker who believes that shit.

Anonymous

12/18/2020 06:43:37 am

Your "advice" in your article is not helpful. And stop making heartless responses to people you know are thinking about suicide. How disgusting are you?

I hope you never practice psychological therapy.

Damond Moore

10/24/2020 08:14:02 am

You're a woman so I expected that reply, but you don't know me. I have two jobs, pay my own bills with no help at all. I'm a very independent man and for you to call me a child because I don't want to live in a world full devil's in blue dresses is some bull shit. Y'all are evil as fuck!

Eva Glasrud link

10/24/2020 08:17:27 am

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're a big man with TWO WHOLE JOBS. Which is why it's so weird you have this defeated, childlike attitude. Women REALLY aren't into that "Boo-hoo! Poor me!!" thing -- from an evolutionary perspective, women who went for men like that died, because they attached themselves to someone who was helpless and defeated.

We're happy to wipe butts and manage emotions of our children, because they are CHILDREN. But that's not what we expect to do with romantic partners.

Take some accountability. Grow up! Being a man is about more than paying your own bills.

Cat Observer

10/30/2020 12:01:55 pm

Why can't you take him at his word? He might just be unattractive. I know a doctor who is compassionate and smart. He is mature and volunteers at city clean up events. He's also a 36 year old virgin. And that's no surprise. He is a 5'6'' Asian man. If he was a woman, taller, had a better face, or white he would be married by now. If his family stayed in China he might have found a wife by now, but in America he has to compete with white guys so even Asian women don't want him.

I have no doubt if he complained about his lot in life you would say he is "immature" or "entitled." The fact of the matter is though he just had bad genes and you have good genes. If the only thing that mattered was maturity, discipline, intelligence, compassion, and accomplishments he would be more attractive than you. But that's not what matters.

Eva Glasrud link

11/2/2020 09:03:07 am

If he were truly that wonderful, he'd've found a partner by now. There's obviously some interpersonal dysfunction going on there that's creeping people out or driving women away.

Damond Moore

10/24/2020 08:44:38 am

Like I said you don't know me, and this is not a boo hoo moment. Just imagine you were a man, and you turned down by every woman that you came across. Anytime you went out with your friend's or male family members, women would approach them leaving you out to dry and look at you with a bit of disgust.. And the shit just keeps happening like a revolving door. Let that sink in for a minute! And yeah yeah I know, men aren't entitled to a women, I get that and respect that. You also have to respect the fact that a lot of men will get tired of going through that bs, and get so numb that they won't care to be women anymore and just say fuck it.

Eva Glasrud link

11/2/2020 08:57:15 am

If that happened to me, I would find another way to meet women instead of doing the same thing over and over, even though it clearly wasn't working. Like... you know there are other dating strategies, right?

Cat

10/30/2020 11:51:36 am

Right now 1 in 3 18-24 year old men haven't had sex in a year. I doubt all of these men are just "immature man babies" who need to grow up.

https://www.ibtimes.com/1-3-american-men-aged-18-24-havent-had-sex-past-year-report-2993949#:~:text=Key%20Findings%3A,31%25%20between%202000%20and%202018

Because of dating apps even ugly women can have short term sex with very attractive men.

The fundamental complaint of incels is that they can't get women who are their equals. In 1984 Plain Jane would have married Jo Nobody but now Jane can hook up with a new Chad on Bumble every week. Chad won't marry her but Jane can hold out hope. So if Jo asks her out at school she'll tell everyone he's a creep. If Jo asks her out at work she'll report him to HR.

Why should men tolerate this?

What is really needed is to shut down dating apps and set up a regulated sexual marketplace. In the real marketplace deregulation leads to a few rich people and mass poverty. In the sexual marketplace deregulation means a few guys get all the girls. With regulated markets we can have a middle class society where most men can get married. Like Jordan Peterson says you need "socially enforced monogamy."

Eva Glasrud link

11/2/2020 08:55:59 am

They wouldn't be incels if they had something to offer. However, they're whiny little boys with little or nothing to offer women, so obviously no woman wants them.

They should read posts like this one, grow up, and take accountability. Then they wouldn't have to be incels anymore.

Your silly little sex fantasy may turn you on, but it's never going to come close to reality, so enjoy jerking it to Jordan Peterson.

Cat

12/2/2020 08:39:19 am

You can't blame the individual men when the number of incels is that large, especially since this wasn't the case a decade ago. Clearly some large scale societal forces beyond these men's control are at work.

I think those forces are dating apps and the solution is enforcing monogamy.

You not really persuading anyone with that ad hominem though. If my arguments were stupid you wouldn't have to result to insults to attack me.

Gloria

4/19/2021 07:02:36 am

Jordan Peterson also said if multiple women reject you the fault lies in you and not in the women. Also isn't socially enforced monogamy already a thing? If your partner cheats, you don't stick with them do you? That my friend is enforced monogamy, cheating is not socially acceptable.

exdeath

11/8/2020 09:42:14 pm

Every single response you're making to people has been rife with ad-hominem. It seems that every time someone challenges your viewpoint, your first instinct is to jump to calling them "incel". I have no doubt you'll do something similar with my own comment, so I may as well tell you my own two cents - you seem like a frustrated individual who has little reason to be frustrated at all.

Eva Glasrud link

11/9/2020 03:03:23 am

I have no reason to be frustrated -- my life is awesome!

Now for the "ad hominem" -- or, as a mature adult might see it, developmental feedback.

You're obviously reading this because at least one person called you creepy. Just like the other dudes who are on here getting defensive.

Instead of blaming women for your out-of-touch behavior, try fixing the behavior. (Or, of course, you could play the part of the little boy and give up.)

Social skills are just that. Skills. You can learn them if you want to.

Mike

11/13/2020 01:26:47 am

"They wouldn't be incels if they had something to offer."

Not necessarily true. Having grown up with disabled people, I've come to know that sometimes that isn't true at all. I've known scores of people, men and women (and yes, female incels do in fact exist), who have marched to their graves virgins simply because they were deformed or simply unattractive. Good people. Interesting engaging people. Employed people with stimulating jobs. Even friendly and socially skilled. And they were incels (in the literal sense...they didn't subscribe to the misogynistic bs that incels seem to believe in) by virtue of their appearances, slurred speech, etc. All of which were things that were out of their control.

"Social skills are just that. Skills. You can learn them if you want to."

Agreed...for most (the overwhelming majority, in fact). For some, people who are profoundly autistic for example, this isn't true. Much the same as it's true that baseball is a skill, but my brother, who cannot get out of his wheelchair nor wield a bat, cannot learn it. I would point out, however, that being physically unattractive is a handicap in MUCH more than just dating. It's a handicap in friendships, too. Such people are going to find it MUCH harder to acquire those skills given how they will probably have less support in doing so.

"Social skills are just that. Skills. You can learn them if you want to."
Implying that people who disagree with you, as that sentence does, are *not* mature adults can easily be seen as an ad hominem attack.

"However, they're whiny little boys with little or nothing to offer women, so obviously no woman wants them."
If you think calling people "whiny little boys" isn't ad hominem, well, suffice it to say I strongly disagree. That isn't developmental feedback, that's just name calling.

"They should read posts like this one, grow up, and take accountability. Then they wouldn't have to be incels anymore."
Whereas your writing *does* have developmental feedback, good developmental feedback in my opinion, your comments do contain the use of name calling and insulting language that is FAR more likely to just drive away an incel and make him more defensive (I say "him" because I suspect you're only talking about male incels). If I'm wrong, then please tell me the study that shows the use of insulting language makes people more open to developmental feedback.

I personally know incels (again, only in the literal sense, they don't subscribe to the misogyny and many are in fact women) who are gown up, very mature (and understandably they would be insulted to hear you imply that they're not), in fact many I would consider almost certainly more mature than you, who do take accountability for what they *can* account for (and there are some things again which are out of their control)...and they are incels or they are now dead and died incels.

I don't have a dog in this fight really. I came to your site because I was looking up travel (but I got hooked!). To the best of my knowledge, no one, man or woman, has called me a creep. Even if they did, my response is to shrug.

Lis

11/15/2020 08:15:07 am

Dear Eva,

If I were you, I'd stop wasting your time trying to make them understand.
I've had a good laugh reading their comments, they sure have a looot of issues. The funniest thing is that they're offended because they are probably the exact type of men you wrote about in this post. Very, very few of them seemed a little reasonable. Most of it was " Why women won't fuck me? I am such a nice guy! It must be because they're shallow, evil feminist bitches!"

Boo-hoo, world's smallest violin pals. Why don't you all pull your big boy pants, and take the L gracefully ?
How about instead of blaming women for your failure, you actually try to be a better person and ultimately get a date?
You have to understand, if ALL women you come across reject you, the problem isn't them, it's YOU. Why is it so hard to accept you're not actually nice?

Also, please stop being hypocrites, I really doubt if an ugly girl tried to flirt with you, you'd be ok with it. I know y'all are going to say that you would, but we know you're just saying that for the sake of your argument.If you're not willing to date ugly girls yourself, you shouldn't be pissed off if the hot chicks want to date hot guys.
Although, we know it isn't about appearance, since there's much more beautiful women with ugly men, than the other way around.

Here, just some examples, besides of what i see in real life:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/04/why-are-pretty-women-always-marrying-ugly-guys.html

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-women-gladly-date-ugl_b_100704

https://www.livescience.com/7483-beautiful-women-marry-attractive-men.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-318078/Why-women-love-ugly-man.html

https://www.nationthailand.com/opinion/30313001

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/men-weigh-in-on-ageold-co_b_6544320

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-physically-beautiful-girls-go-out-with-ugly-guys

https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/e4utbf/ratio_of_ugly_ass_men_to_beautiful_women/

https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/fo6440/ugly_men_arent_more_attracted_to_ugly_or_average/

Anyways, if you look up there are other similar articles and such.
That is not to say that handsome men who date unattractive women don't exist. Of course they do, but that's more uncommon than the alternative.

I think it would be wise if you all searched for the help you need in improving your personality and social skills, maybe see a therapist, psychologist, counselor or some other.

exdeath

11/20/2020 07:40:53 pm

you're doing it right now.

Anderson

12/17/2020 08:49:08 pm

"Social skills are just that. Skills. You can learn them if you want to."

Nope, wrong. Everyone has their own unique personality, along with their own unique style of communication. Both of these put together are what people around you perceive as your social functionality. Not everyone is going to like your unique personality: the things you say, your sense of humor, your natural, authentic approach to interactions, etc.

So it is best to find people who are on your wavelength, personalitywise. Your unique "social skills," will be eye-to-eye with each other's, and you won't have to agonize over trying to avoid catty, derisive judgment's like Eva's. Everything will just be natural and fluent.

And how exactly do you expect everyone to learn your definition of "social skills?" The same way you would expect everyone on earth to dunk a basketball by practicing jumping up and down repeatedly?

Also, a lot of your language is petty and antagonistic, such as your expectation for men to "know the energy a woman displays to show she wants you to ask her out, and if you don't know how to gauge it, then you're stupid." I would expect more maturity from my 6-year-old nieces. Maybe it is you that needs to grow up and stop playing the victim.

Anderson

1/12/2021 04:34:51 pm

Mike,

Eva doesn't have empathy for men who have severe fundamental social/cognitive issues. She only offers the "sink-or-swim" mentality with very little tangible advice to help them be "normal." The material in this article is insufficient for the purposes of making these men non-detestable in her eyes, as evidenced by her petulant "whiny little boys" outburst.

Sascha

11/15/2020 08:31:58 am

I can't see how a well adjusted, happy person, living an awesome life could write an article like this, respond to commenters challenging it's central thesis (those ignorant bodyshaming posts and the like aside) with vitriol and condescension, and be generally closed minded and mean spirited. I would be utterly ashamed to type these sorts of things, let alone post them for the the internet to read.
You're not much better than the trolls who came to get a rise out of you.

Eva Glasrud link

11/15/2020 06:56:15 pm

That's a great question. I'm glad you asked! There are three reasons I don't sugarcoat my replies to comments:

1. The reason therapy fails for so many people (including, undoubtedly, many of the men reading this post) is because a lot of therapists suck. Instead of using research-based methods and calling people out in their bullshit, they tell you to ruminate and whine and complain.

The fact is, most abnormal psychology has a powerful interpersonal basis. The reason these men are alone and miserable is because they are doing something wrong interpersonally.

I call people out on their bullshit because ultimately, that's what's going to help them the most -- and it's the kind of feedback that can be the rarest and hardest to get. (Most people won't, for example, tell their friends, "I wish I could invite you to more parties, but you cling instead of mingling, so it's not really fun when you're there," -- see also: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/youd-get-invited-to-more-parties-and-events-if-you-would-mingle-instead-of-cling -- or, "I decline most of your invitations to hang out because when I hint that I'm tired and want to go home, you just keep talking" -- see also: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/loveyourselfisfalse).

2. I see no reason to be polite to someone who was rude to me. In fact, as Danny Wallace writes in F* You Very Much: Understanding the Culture of Rudeness and What We Can Do About It (https://amzn.to/3lBuSW2), "The world is becoming a ruder place. And the cure for runaway rudeness... is rudeness."

3. I believe a euphemism in this case would be a lie. The people who get their panties in a bunch over it (probably including you) are those who suffer from a victimhood mentality, instead of a growth mentality. I can't control whether people want to grow or play the victim. All I can do is give them the information they need to grow and improve.

Again, great question. I'm glad you asked. As to your other rantings:

1. "I would be utterly ashamed to type these sorts of things, let alone post them on the internet."

I love your sense of humor. At least... I hope that was irony and not a total lack of self-awareness.

2. "I can't see how a well adjusted, happy person living an awesome life could write an article about this."

That's because you've got that crippling victimhood mindset. This article isn't an attack, and for every defensive public comment, I get a private email or two thanking me for finally writing useful advice. I'm so, so happy I was able to help those men, because I think romantic love is one of the greatest possible gifts.

If it makes you feel better to cognitively reframe (see also: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/this-is-one-of-the-most-powerful-psychology-hacks-ever-invented-and-it-only-takes-a-few-minutes) and pretend I'm secretly miserable, then do it. I'm here to help make people happy, after all.

I've always lived like I'm traveling (see also: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/life-hack-do-what-you-do-when-you-travel-while-youre-at-home), but now I'm officially a full-time RVer. Feel free to follow me at instagram.com/thehappytalent. It's been a wild ride :)

Mike

11/18/2020 02:39:10 pm

Hello Eva
I’m not exactly sure if you’re addressing me or this Sascha person or both of us. Some of your remarks seem to address what I wrote, yet others are about things Sascha wrote, and I clearly didn’t write. For the moment, I’m going to assume you’re addressing me.
Be this understood. This Sascha person doesn’t speak for me, and I don’t agree with everything he wrote.
So, point by point as you wrote them
1. I never stated nor implied that you should sugar coat anything. Though the fact that you seemed to have inferred this might be telling. Like yourself, I too believe in calling out people’s bullshit. However, my experience in an actual leadership role, which I’ve held since you had a Hannah Montana lunchbox or even before you were born (based on my estimate of your age from your pics) has taught me that it is eminently doable to call out people’s bullshit *without* resorting to insulting language and name calling. I also agree with you that much of therapy doesn’t work, largely because I think it’s pseudo-science. Like yourself, I believe that a therapist who simply allows his/her client to ruminate about a problem without action is doing the client no good (or worse!). I too believe that research-based methods should be used. So where’s the research that says the use of insulting language such as “whiny little boys” or “babysitting” someone who is an adult is an effective form of therapy or developmental feedback. Let’s see the peer reviewed research that name calling actually gets people to listen in therapy or anything else. Not anecdotes like “Well, I got some emails thanking me,” which is *far* from scientific (you don’t know how many people never bothered to send an email telling you that your methods *didn’t* work, you aren’t an unbiased observer of the feedback you’ve received, etc.) I too believe developmental feedback is a fantastic resource. I also agree it’s rare. Where we disagree is that you seem to think that insulting language is an effective form of such feedback. But if I’m wrong, then show me the peer reviewed scientific research that shows name calling and insulting language will actually produce better results in getting people to listen to you. Please show me the peer reviewed scientific research that shows a therapist gets better results when he/she adopts name calling in therapy.
2. Danny Wallace isn’t a behavioral scientist, so I doubt very much that his book contains any research that actually offers evidence that this policy of counteracting rudeness with more rudeness gets more effective results than other methods. Show me the scientific evidence, based on peer reviewed studies, that counteracting rudeness with more rudeness gets the best results. Show me the peer reviewed scientific studies that calling people “whiny babies” actually gets them to listen more, or makes them less rude.
3. Refusal to use names and insulting language is *not* the same as euphemisms. Not at all. A person can be direct and honest without being insulting. Whereas we can’t control victim mentalities, we can strive to guide them to a better understanding. I don’t believe this is done by using the language you used in the comments. Moreover, I just watched a video by the author of the book you recommend, Olivia Fox Cabane, and I found it very enlightening and agreed with it for the most part. Yet nowhere in the video I watched did she use the language you have used. I’ve not read the book you recommended, but I think I will. Did she call her readers “whiny little boys” in the book? Does she call her readers any names at all anywhere in the book? Does she adopt *any* insulting language towards her readers in the book?
As for the other points…
1. I didn’t write that. Sascha did.
2. I didn’t write that either. I for one think you are almost certainly happy and well adjusted. But I’m sure you and I would agree that being happy and well adjusted is no guarantee against being wrong.
Be this understood. I *liked* your article. I just don’t agree with your choice of language in the comments. You say that incels would do well to read your article, but how likely are they to listen to you after you state that their “whiny little boys?” If I’m wrong, and insulting people actually *does* make them more likely to listen to you, then please show me the peer reviewed research (and emails thanking you isn’t research) that adopting insulting language increases the likelihood of people learning from you or even just listening to you at all.

Eva Glasrud link

11/19/2020 06:27:24 am

So technically the reply was to "Sascha," not you. But.

>> " I believe that a therapist who simply allows his/her client to ruminate about a problem without action is doing the client no good (or worse!). I too believe that research-based methods should be used."

Good. So we're in agreement.

>> "So where’s the research that says the use of insulting language such as “whiny little boys” or “babysitting” someone who is an adult is an effective form of therapy or developmental feedback. Let’s see the peer reviewed research that name calling actually gets people to listen in therapy or anything else."

If you're really interested in learning more about this, I would start with Interpersonal Foundations of Psychopathology (https://amzn.to/3pLwE9B). It's a textbook that provides a wonderful summary and explanation of the research, and there are hundreds of sources in the citations.

People who are called creepy are people who are having interpersonal problems. This post is for them.

Again, I consider a euphemism in this case to be a lie. If someone is talking or acting like a powerless, whiny child, of course I'm going to tell them so. Their "friends" are probably too afraid to do so, so perhaps this stranger in the internet is the first person to tell them, "The way you're acting right now is extremely whiny and childish, and THIS is why no one wants to date you." It is a kindness.

>> "Danny Wallace isn’t a behavioral scientist, so I doubt very much that his book contains any research that actually offers evidence that this policy of counteracting rudeness with more rudeness gets more effective results than other methods."

Are... are YOU a behavioral scientist? Did you know that people who haven't earned a degree in a specific field can read research from that field -- even peer reviewed studies! -- and form opinions based on that? Surely you understand this. Otherwise, why would you be asking for the peer reviewed studies?

Danny read a lot of papers and interviewed a lot of experts for his book, and I agreed with many of his conclusions. Check it out for yourself if you want. https://amzn.to/3pJjVo8

>> "Refusal to use names and insulting language is *not* the same as euphemisms. Not at all."

When a grown man is acting like a gross, whiny child, how would you gently guide him to better behavior?

There are several philosophies on euphemisms, kindness, and lies. Euphemisms are typically intended to be kind, but in practice they achieve the opposite. If someone's acting like a whiny little baby, and women don't like dating boys they have to babysit, I see no reason to soften the reality of the situation. To me... how else do I say it? It just feels like a lie.

>> "Yet nowhere in the video I watched did she use the language you have used."

Different audiences. Different purposes. Plus, I'm guessing in her video no one was nasty to her. But I'm glad you enjoyed the video.

>> "You say that incels would do well to read your article, but how likely are they to listen to you after you state that their “whiny little boys?”

They would. And many have, and it helped. It is rare to get this kind of direct and honest feedback anywhere else in life -- the goal is to get them to realize, "Wow -- is that really how women see me?" And then they can grow up and become someone capable of attracting a partner.

Snipes

11/29/2020 09:37:33 am

I bet these unattractive men in the comments aren’t trying to date women in their own league but only want women much hotter than themselves. If you’re not willing to date a woman less attractive then don’t be mad when a hottie doesn’t want to date you. She is no more or less shallow than you are.

Cat

12/2/2020 08:26:31 am

Unless a society enforces monogamy the top 20% of men will take 80% of the women (actual numbers may vary). So an average girl can get fucked by Chads every night and still not be able to lock down one any of these Chads for a long term relationship. But every Chad that rails her out gives her hope that one day she'll marry a rich stud. Her looks match, an average guy, meanwhile only matches with very ugly girls on Tinder and would rather go without.

The real complaint of incels is that they can't get their looks match.

Sana

12/13/2020 04:15:05 am

Dude, where the hell do you get these ideas from? Also, did you really say Chad? That and your other answers make you seem like a textbook nice guy.

zack50

12/7/2020 08:45:13 am

The level of entitlement from women in these comments is frankly astonishing. You actually think you're entitled to ruin a man's career or set a twitter mob on him because he committed the crime of asking you out when you don't find him attractive? Wow.

Anderson

12/17/2020 05:38:46 pm

Anyone who does that, man or woman, is just as vile as any deviant the author of this blog is complaining about.

Azmodan

12/12/2020 08:22:47 pm

"Yes, all else equal, women like men who are tall and handsome. BUT. What's going to be a lot more important than that in the long-run is his ability to provide"...

How about a nice warm cup of go fuck yourself you fucking gold-digging cunt?

You and your kind are the reason MGTOW and Redpillers exist

Eva Glasrud link

1/8/2021 08:22:26 pm

Awww, did reality hurt your feelings?? Poor dude.

Azmodan

1/9/2021 07:00:10 pm

So you admit you're a gold-digging whore who basically only values a man based on what he can give you, not what he is...

Got it.

So, what did you name your vibrator? Cause I'm pretty sure that's the only thing that's gonna please you for the rest of your life, you fucking gob of wasted sperm.

Tell your mommy to swallow next time, if she hasn't killed herself already after she saw what a fucking disapointment to her you've become.

Eva Glasrud link

1/9/2021 07:26:11 pm

Nope. I admit that I don't think you have very good reading comprehension skills because you are too emotional to understand what you read.

If you refer back to the part about how women don't like stupid dudes, then you read the tired, generic and recycled insults you thought were clever (poor dude!), you might begin to understand why you are alone. Women don't like stupid, helpless men.

Prescott Czygan

1/14/2021 08:29:11 am

Women in general just plain suck. Stop demonizing men and how we do things”a. Women left it up to us to do the approaching so we will continue to approach. If a women says you are creepy then remind her she’s just a stuck up bitch. STOP BEING NICE TO THEM. STOP CATERING TO THEIR FEELINGS. START ACTING LIKE MEN AGAIN AND TAKE WHAT YOU WANT. WOMEN BE DAMNED.

Eva Glasrud link

1/20/2021 05:53:44 am

It's very stupid that you think simply "approaching" a woman is going to lead to something, whether you do it well or not. You can't just throw a basketball at a hoop -- well, you can, I guess, but it will never go in and people are going to call you names because you suck and they're going to do anything they can to keep you off their team. Same with approaching women. The way you do it clearly sucks or people wouldn't be calling you creepy. Figure out a better way to do it.

Solving problems is what "real men" do. Whining is what helpless little boys do.

Andrew

1/16/2021 11:15:17 am

Eva, you come off as creepy and egotistic in this post and the ensuing comments. You should consider taking your own advice.

Eva Glasrud link

1/20/2021 05:47:16 am

Haha, yes, I am totally going around in this post hitting on people who clearly aren't interested in me.

I'm surprised you made it this far without even gaining a basic comprehension of what "creepy" means. But your lack of comprehension is probably a large part of the reason so many people call you creepy, and why it feels like there's nothing you can do about it. You can't fix a problem you haven't managed to define yet.

mabalahibo

1/24/2021 08:01:05 pm

So if I'm ugly I just have to find another way to approach flirting differently.

Okay so getting to know them is a start but wait, the very act of me even talking to them is repulsive because I'm ugly. Trying to find out via social media makes me a stalker so that is off the table.

I guess I'll try to change my behavior then. Oh wait, maybe I need to ask others about what their opinion of me is and see if I'm good. Family is not applicable due to inherit bias. But wait, I can only talk to men since women avoids me. Let's include family then.They say I'm okay and is nice and overall good personality. Seemingly a good confidence boost. Tried again.

Nope. It comes full circle. Can't still talk to girls without getting shut down despite above steps mentioned.

So I guess I have no choice but to stay single since to be considered as a man, I have to take accountability with my faults ( being ugly) .

Thanks for this article. It really improved my outlook in life in terms with relationship with men and women.

Eva Glasrud link

1/25/2021 09:45:09 am

It's not "repulsive" for you to TALK to them. It's repulsive for you to HIT ON someone who isn't interested. If you are ugly, you should get to know people before hitting on them, or the only thing they will have to judge you by are your looks, so they will obviously reject you.

Not sure what you're "trying to find out" on social media -- I think you omitted something accidentally.

I think it would be good for you to talk to anyone who is close to you -- male friends, female friends, family -- to see if there's something in your behavior they think you should change. Most people, though, aren't 100% comfortable being 100% honest. They're afraid they're going to hurt you. So, really, active study and self-reflection may be your best bet here. Also, a therapist may be useful in helping you identify behaviors and attitudes that others may find off-putting. If the person you're seeing never gives you this kind of developmental feedback, fire them and find someone new. There are a LOT of bad therapists out there who never call people out on their bullshit and encourage you to just sit there and whine. They happily cash your checks while doing nothing to help you improve -- after all, that would be bad for business.

I don't know you, so there's only so much feedback I can offer. One thing I would suggest is, loneliness hurts. It's designed to hurt. Tremendously. It hurts so much, that people often do things that provide short-term relief (clinging to someone too much, even after they've said goodnight, because you don't want to be alone again yet; short-term, you get relief -- long-term, this person won't want to see you again because you ignored their boundaries), and it has long-term negative consequences. Think about the ways in which you might be disrespecting boundaries. Learn to say goodnight, even when it hurts.

Another, obviously, is try to meet people through shared interests and activities.

Here's another. You're obviously struggling. People who feel alone tend to say "I" a lot (so much, in fact, that computers can predict depression just based on pronoun usage). You spend all your time alone, so you spend a lot of time thinking about yourself -- so then you spend a lot of time *talking* about yourself. I don't know if this describes you or not. But... try to say "I" less. Instead, listen closely to what other people say. Instead of trying to prove to them that you are interesting (which usually just makes you look insecure), demonstrate a sincere interest in them.

And, since you're feeling pretty defeated and helpless about this, and unspoken emotions often come across in our interactions with others... is there a way you could cognitively reframe your situation? Is there something you can think about that makes you feel successful, or like you have a sense of control over the world around you? See also: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/this-is-one-of-the-most-powerful-psychology-hacks-ever-invented-and-it-only-takes-a-few-minutes

mabalahibo

1/26/2021 04:13:21 pm

I was being sarcastic.

Obviously you don't flirt right away. You try to know them. But getting to know someone means you need to communicate with them first. How? By talking with them. So now is the problem. The other gender misconstrue any attempts to talk with them as creepy because of how you look. So how can you even go to the next level when you have this road block? And what about behavior? A person needs to change theirs because the other one's view is misguided and flawed? They equate ugly = creep, then what differentiate them to people who equate black = thug? white = racist? Isn't it much better to further educate people not to judge a book by it's cover?

With regards to social media, I just mentioned that as it is one of the examples you can get to know someone without communicating with them. But I advise against doing this as you are nearing stalker behavior.

I will not reply anymore.You clearly lack empathy by the way you have dismissed others legitimate concern about this matter. Instead of suggesting for the offending parties behavior to change, you blame the victims and tell them that they are the problem in the first place.

You are just proving our point. If your hot it's okay, if your not, change your behavior,

Allen

1/28/2021 01:15:30 pm

Nobody has ever called me creepy or anything remotely similar - in fact women always seem genuinely happy when I introduce myself and strike up a conversation with them. I have women friends who tell me repeatedly that I am definitely *not* creepy and that I understand women better than most guys. In fact, women regularly ask me if I'm in a relationship and are surprised when I tell them I've always been single. Irrespective of my friends' and others' kind (and honest) words, I have always believed that with women I'm attracted to, asking for what I want (a kiss, a date, etc.,) would be creepy / offensive, and as such, I have never done any of those things. When I ask women friends of mine *how* to express interest, they say the usual things - "just ask", "escalate with flirting", "break the touch barrier", etc., - none of which I feel I can do because I'm certain my doing so would be offensive. I like the direct heartfelt approach you take in your responses to other comments, Eva - do you have any thoughts on mine? Thanks in advance.

Rake link

2/10/2021 02:32:06 pm

I have a question that has me puzzled.. so for example I was working at this club cleaning up basically every night. So one night I take a penis pill and I get a call to come in and work.. so the site is at a different location because moving so I’m super excited. I can control my erection and let it all go to my head. So I’m literally showing almost everyone I know my dick instantly. I get called “crazy” so as I’m going to work in the car I get out back and walk down the stairs and this lady Elaine is there nobody is looking so I flash her my penis. She actually zipped my pants back up.. that was annoying but I was so horny I didn’t let it bother me I just went to work. So I see her again and she calls me crazy and says “I’m buggin” so I said ME TOO. Then I get her number at the end of the day. Long story short. My question is “Do I really have to show my Johnson in order to get somebody’s attention?” This is what is driving me crazy 24/7 everyday, I need insight because nobody in my life understands me unless they see me naked im real Time. Help?

Dawson

2/11/2021 07:52:29 am

Hey Eva,

In the tweet you posted Linda says

"If he's cute, it's called flirting but if he's ugly that's sexual harassment and you'd better go to HR.

Do you think Linda is a good person?
Do you think what Linda says is good or okay?
Should two people face different consequences for the same action based on who they are? By consequences I mean the consequences of rules and laws.

Thanks.

Eva Glasrud link

2/12/2021 06:24:30 pm

I don't know Linda. She might be a good person. She might be joking, in which case, good for her. Jokes are funny and I like humor. She might be serious, in which case, yes, I would judge her for this assuming it means what you think it does: that the exact same behavior is either harassment or not based only on the man's physical attractiveness (which is a really weird premise, because, as I wrote in the post, "identical" behaviors are not identical when the women's response is positive vs. negative -- continuing to flirt when someone isn't reciprocating is creepy).

Do I think what she says is good or okay? I think it's dumb, but I'm not in the business of compelling speech.

Yes, two people should face different consequences if one person was flirting with a woman who flirted back, and the other person was flirting with a woman who did not flirt back, because flirting with someone who isn't flirting back, especially at work, is inappropriate and creepy. There generally is no such thing as "exact same behavior" in an interpersonal exchange.

Shabbis

2/26/2021 07:46:53 pm

All is "fair" in love, but what is not is incriminating, or holding people legally liable, for something as subjective, unpredictable, and unreliable as "attraction". Have I met my share of women whom I don't find attractive? Sure. But to call harassment simply because someone I am not attracted to, approaches me, talks to me, or even flirt with me? Absolutely not. Try this in a different region of the world, I can guarantee you some of these types of "harassment" claims will never make it into a joke. We live in a great society where we protect those whom other cultures deem "weak", this places an incredible amount of pressure and stress on those expected to cater to protected groups.

Use legal protection for real harassment, not for when somebody simply shows that they like you, when you could have just walked away, or clearly communicate (verbally!) that you are not interest. If you choose to play "hard to get" you assume the common sense assumption that human beings may misinterpret your "hints" or nonverbal signals, no matter how intuitive the other person are.

Eva Glasrud link

2/27/2021 05:23:52 am

If you didn't do anything wrong, there is a 99.9% chance no one's going to take you to court over it. I have no idea where this strange fear comes from, but it's not reality.

If creepy men would back off when women didn't reciprocate their interest, women wouldn't have to escalate.

If people are telling you you are creepy, you should at least CONSIDER that they might be right, and you might be the one doing something wrong.

Zhuan

2/26/2021 08:00:36 pm

I see you are a backpacker, I would be curious to see you share all of your thoughts on this page with someone in an Asian country. It could be any...Israel, China, Japan, Afghanistan... These "values" are not so universal I'm afraid. You can prove me wrong, but as someone who have lived there, I can tell you people don't even have translations for some of the terms like "LGBT" "Manspreading". I would really be interested to hear your thoughts after you compare it with non-western cultural norms (which take up about half of this world)...

I assume since you seem to advocate for women, you would also support diversity, and different cultures, right? If so, I would be interested to hear your perspectives on my culture.

Eva Glasrud link

2/27/2021 05:21:07 am

I'm not a brainless moron who supports "diversity" for the sake of diversity. Not every part of every culture deserves my respect, and I call out backwards, 3rd century bullshit when I see it. I know a lot of feminism is extremely anti-woman and anti-science right now, but that's not me. (See also: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/sorry-but-no-not-every-part-of-every-culture-deserves-my-respect and http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/if-you-care-about-womens-rights-stop-saying-that-islam-is-a-religion-of-peace and http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/everyday-feminism-just-posted-the-worst-advice-ever-for-women-poc-and-other-marginalized-folks.)

I'm not sure what you're asking me to compare, though. All of these countries are very different and have different issues when it comes to women's rights, human rights (or lack thereof), social justice, etc.

Doug

2/28/2021 08:31:00 am

You say I shouldn’t ask a woman out unless I’m sure she’ll say yes. Since I’m never certain (99% of the time it’s very clear she’ll say no), I never ask.

Doug

3/3/2021 07:05:26 pm

A fact that isn’t often raised is that a guy must be realistic when it comes to trying to attract women. In my case, I know I’m unable to attract any woman no matter what I do so I don’t do anything - the comments by women pictured at the top of this article apply to me in any setting and with any woman no matter what I do or how I do it. There is no way any woman would ever be sexually interested in me when there are other guys around. I do not have what other guys have (no matter who they are) to attract women. I’ve seen therapists, hired dating coaches and gone out with male friends who are successful with women and with women friends who’ve been sort of wingwomen for me. Nothing has worked and none of them understand (or if they do have told me) what the issue(s) is/are.

Eva Glasrud link

3/4/2021 07:06:23 am

Are you hitting on girls who are out of your league? Are you expressing sexual interest before you've established any shared interest or friendship? Are you touching them when they don't want to be touched because your dating coach said something dumb like "violate her space" or "kiss her at the end of the date"?

Clearly you're doing something wrong. I can't believe that no woman in the whole world would EVER be attracted to you. My guess, based on knowing very little, is that a) you're trying to move things along too fast (which makes sense -- you're lonely and you want a relationship, so you REALLY want to get one going, but it's important to go slow) and b) you have this defeated attitude that girls are going to pick up on, whether you explicitly say, "I'm unattractive, hopeless, and feel like I have nothing to offer," or not.

Stop trying to attract girls who are out of your league (remember: you have to be realistic, and men and women alike are guilty of complaining that no one will date them when they are 4s and they're trying to date 8s). Stop trying to rush things -- go at her pace, not the pace some dating coach told you to go at. (There is no such thing as "getting friendzoned" -- if a girl doesn't want to kiss you after your fifth date, it's not because you didn't try to kiss her after the third. It's because she never wanted to kiss you in the first place. Period.) And really spend some time thinking about what you DO have to offer. You have to MAKE yourself believe you have something to offer -- the ability and resources to provide. A wicked sense of humor. Incredible empathy. The ability to be an excellent stay-at-home dad. Whatever. If YOU don't believe you have something to offer, no woman ever will, and if you have nothing to offer, why would anyone want to date you?

This may require some serious cognitive reframing. I wrote a post about it here: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/this-is-one-of-the-most-powerful-psychology-hacks-ever-invented-and-it-only-takes-a-few-minutes

Olivia Fox Cabane also has a really great chapter about it in her book, The Charisma Myth: How Anyone Can Master the Art and Science of Personal Magnetism (https://amzn.to/2Okerlm).

Doug

4/12/2021 07:04:02 am

I’m a zero, so I never approach any woman. I have many women friends but never has there been even a hint of romantic / sexual interest in me from anyone. This tells me there is no point in expressing my interest in women I’m attracted to - it’s guaranteed no matter what I do would be creepy.

Joe

4/12/2021 03:54:27 pm

Hi Doug,

I saw this comment and your other one below. I know you're feeling really down on yourself so it's easy to think you're a zero, as you put it, but I really don't believe that is true even without having met you. Even if you're truly ugly you'd probably be at least a 3 if you got fit and had good personal hygiene.

Take a look at this guy's story, Robert Hoge. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/robert-hoge-memoir_n_57e1c16be4b08d73b82e378b

He was so ugly even his own mother didn't want him initially. Not only is his face deformed but his legs were mangled at birth and one was amputated. Despite all this he's married and has a child and his wife is pretty decent looking too. He's probably at least a two on the scale.

Unless you're truly hideously deformed, massively obese, and unclean, then surely you're ahead of this guy. Am I wrong?

Doug

4/12/2021 05:15:31 pm

Hi Joe - I don’t know anything about Robert other than what they tell us. I work out 4x per week and climb waterfalls as a hobby. I eat well and take care of myself; I am certainly not “hideously deformed”. None of these things mean a thing when it comes to attracting women and as a result I have never expressed interest in any woman no matter how attracted I am to her. Since flirting has to be mutual - and no woman has ever flirted with me - I’m not about to put myself out there and get charged with a crime for expressing interest. This is why I am a zero.

Joe

4/12/2021 07:24:33 pm

Doug, that sounds pretty bad ass, I wanna try that now. Does that mean what you're telling me is that you are physically attractive to women, but that your fear of being accused of something criminal has influenced you to decide to take yourself of the dating market? And so you consider yourself a zero even though your real number is probably like at least a four?

Your comment about flirting being mutual caught my attention. A lot of posters on here seem to conflate flirting with approaching. Flirting is sexual in nature and yes can be seen as creepy if it's not mutual. The solution to that is to approach respectfully and build rapport in a non sexual way first, ie "Would you like to get a coffee sometime?". Dating then will likely lead to flirting.

Doug

4/22/2021 09:15:24 am

Hi Joe - whether I am "physically attractive to women" is for individual women to decide. I do what I do to be healthy and active. As the article suggests, flirting has to be mutual. Given that no woman has shown signs of romantic / sexual interest in (flirted with) me, I have never initiated. Doing so in a society where many women are of the mind that unless a guy is attractive, any advance is creepy, I would be opening myself to potential legal issues.

Joe

4/22/2021 12:13:56 pm

Hello again Doug,

I still think you're confusing the concepts of approaching women and flirting with women. Would you not agree they are different?

You said. "As the article suggests, flirting has to be mutual." but then you also say, " unless a guy is attractive, any advance is creepy". I'm trying to understand how you get from the first point to the second.

Why do you believe you can't approach a woman to have a pleasant and respectful conversation to get to know her better? This is where our two opinions differ. I don't believe that all advances are creepy, just the unwanted sexually flirtatious ones.

You mention your fear of getting into legal trouble, but where does that fear come from? I've never heard of a country having laws against a man talking to a woman, even if he is ugly.

I hope you won't take offence to this, but I find it funny that you're able to hang off a waterfall, staring actual death in the face, but talking to a woman is what perturbs you.

Paul

3/4/2021 08:54:52 am

First, let me say that men can be pigs, sexual harrassment is real, and that it is a problem. Secondly, as an older man I have witness TRUE sexual harrassment and have testified for a female college against a male who was the victim. All that being said, 90% of sexual harrassment is pure BS. Women want it both ways.
Women want all the adulation and attention but only from their prime suitors. If they find a man unworthy, they protest. I have seen men, good men, treated less than dogs by women while I have seen "handsome" men get away with proverbial murder on the workplace. I may sound mysogynist but this my experience.
My advice to men? Don't even look at a woman in your workplace. It just isn't worth it. Become a workplace "eunuch." Find your mate elsewhere.
And yes, the Tom Brady Saturday Night Live Skit from almost 20 years ago is the TRUTH. That is why it was so damn funny and powerful.

Eva Glasrud link

3/5/2021 06:22:37 am

"All that being said, 90% of sexual harrassment [sic] is pure BS."

Do you have a citation for that, or are you just emoting?

"Women want all the adulation and attention but only from their prime suitors. If they find a man unworthy, they protest. "

Even if this were true... Do you think women shouldn't have a right to decide who they flirt with? Do you think women should be obligated to flirt with anyone who shows sexual interest?

"My advice to men? Don't even look at a woman in your workplace. It just isn't worth it."

I actually agree. Usually when a man says "just give up on women," he's being pathetic and self-pitying, and it's obvious why women find him repulsive. Women don't like broken, defeated men who whine and feel like they have no power or control over their situation. However, "don't try to date in the workplace" is extremely good advice. For everyone. Male or female, hot or ugly. Unless you're 100% certain the person wants to date you, don't try to date them. It is not worth it.

Paul McKenzie

3/5/2021 06:47:47 am

Eva, I was citing my over 30 yrs of work experience. Secondly, I am catching a hard whiff of misandry from from. Men are not inherently "pathetic." We HATE rejection and dejection. We have healthy egos and being turned down hurts.
I stated that harassment is real. I have witnessed it. I have also witnessed it and have seen women act like lovestruck 7th graders if the man is "hot." Yes, women want it both ways. Men are are the proverbial chicken dancing on the electric grate; constantly moving because the floor is hot. The boundries constantly shift.
My advice to women? Quit acting like a rockstar groupie every time a "hot" guy comes along. Show some self-respect and quit laying down for every Handsome Dan with a smooth line of shit that comes along.
My advice for men? Also show some self-respect and respect women also. Treat women RIGHT, be a gentlemen. A real woman will come along. Quit chasing women who chase the obvious "hot" guy--these women are stuck in Junior High. Superficiality attracts superficiality. Vapid people make look nice but they suck.

Eva Glasrud link

3/6/2021 05:22:55 am

So anecdotes, then? Cool.

I'm catching a hard whiff of hypersensitivity from you. Where did I say all men are pathetic? Most of my friends are men, and I have conversations with maybe 3-7 men I don't know every single day. It's so much fun to learn about their lives, goals, and perspectives!

Know what they all have in common?

They're not creepy.

They don't invade my personal space.

They don't make inappropriate comments about my appearance.

It is pretty easy not to be creepy.

Hari

3/14/2021 11:41:36 pm

@Paul
Truer words haven't been said
Since the day I my eyes saw this hypocrisy I knew I wasn't participating in it. Double standards at its finest. Years ago when I was younger (I'm still in my 30s though), a girl in my social circle wanted my attention after she'd treated a cousin who had pursued her worse than a dog. I couldn't even look at her after that - I lost all my respect for her. I couldn't see her even as a friend let alone a romantic partner.
This article seems to fully support and endorse the nasty behavior of the girl in my story: that it is OKAY--even expected--in the author's opinion to treat my cousin like a dog because he failed the mind reading test and *dared* pursue someone who didn't want him back. I'm not sure what level of self-entitlement it takes to live comfortably with such values.
On the contrary, I have seen high quality women who would go out of their way to be kind when rejecting an unwanted pursuer. However I do blame a great majority of men too for not standing for themselves enough against today's men shaming culture.

Hari

3/17/2021 12:58:41 pm

Update: as mentioned elsewhere in this comments thread, I realized later I'd made a mixing-up mistake as I was reading from several different blogs on the day I made my comment and realized that I wasn't really responding to the right article!! I therefore take what I said in my earlier comment dated March 14 back and it doesn't reflect what I think about this article at all.

Giovanni

3/5/2021 10:08:42 pm

Regardless of what society really thinks about ugly and handsome men approaching women, Eva's article is deeply flawed because its grotesquely biased and unsympathetic. Not against "ugly men" and not even against "men", but against whoever takes the initiative (since women can also be the approachers).

Eva doesn't seem to have a properly developed sense of personal responsibility and boundaries (ironic, given how she overuses that last word).

She treats this as if the "approacher" was responsible for how the "approachee" would feel about the approach, and that the first had a moral duty to achieve some (honestly unachievable) level of social skills to never accidentaly proceed in some unwanted advance.

She doesn't care about what the "approacher" feels or about the importance, for everyone, of the task he or she performs (after all, if no one ever took the initiative, everybody would die lonely and our species would go extinct). She acts as if the one who's taking the initiative is basically a "potential burden" and that he or she has to go through all the lengths not to risk the "felony" of making an invitation that is going to be declined.

Eva puts all weights over the "approacher", but none about the potential "approachee" (i.e., any member of society), even though some of the weight has to be shared to him or her. Given that, if you politely ask somebody out, and that person feels "deeply uncomfortable and objectified", he or she is the one who has to grow a thick skin. Not you.

Because there is no "objectification" inherent to dating, and, if the "approachee" extrapolates this out of a simple invitation to hang out, he or she should seek a therapist, toughen up, and disarm him or herself, otherwise he or she will never be able to properly live in a society. It's not your responsibility to prevent someone else from being offended by regular speech.

As I said before, nothing in this world would work out if people didn't take the initiative. Leaving dating aside for a second, kids just form friendships because some of them risk talking to other kids, even if those other kids may get bothered by this contact.

Taking risks is inherent to human existence and human socialization. Of course, common sense and etiquette needs to be respected, but, as I said, that's not what Eva is talking about. She is giving the approacher an unproportionate burden.

She repeatedly talks about how they should erase all possible doubt before making some advance, and that they "need" to develop social skills to be able to understand the signs, and if they live their lives in a certain way this is gonna be easier, etc..

I find it analogous to a pick-up artist advocating that men should have "game". The difference is that the PUA says you should go totally out of you way into a new lifestyle to start having game to have a lot of sexual partners. Eva says you need to do so* if you are ugly, want to talk to a girl and not be viewed as creepy.

(* to an even more unrealistic of a degree, since you'd need to become sort of a mind reader).

I don't consider it too hard to understand why someone may not want to spend so much time and energy becoming better at approaching people, and I don't think he or she should be seen as a creepy for, you know, respectfully doing his or her best for his or her own capacity. This doesn't really damage anyone at all, let alone to the point of justifying taking such a big weight to "protect" other people of undesired advances.

I believe this whole "calling ugly people creepy" thing has a lot more to do with people lacking empathy, and feeling a rush on being judgemental and labeling others, than with ugly people actually creeping someone.

I don't think ugly people (morally) should change something on how they behave on this circumstance, because that's not where the root of such a controversy lies.

With that being said, it's 1,000 times easier to change yourself than to change the world. Most people won't move on from being judgemental, so for a ugly guy all that remains is either adapting to all this BS, stopping to care, or trying to fruitlessly protest for change in an unfavorable environment.

I honestly find the second option the easiest and best one. I'm not ugly myself, but I can still either care or not care about how other people judge my behavior, and, pretty much all the time, I just pick the latter.

I flirt by being myself. If it works, that's great, if it doesn't, I don't care.

---

I'm feeling really sleepy right now, so I'm going just to say one more thing to finish this:

I guess that I just spent like three hours of my life (this is not my first comment) talking about an issue which doesn't directly affect myself; because the writing in this article seems extremely condescending.

I don't know why so many women talk on such a patronizing way towards men. It looks like every article ever written about dating assumes every man on Earth is a freaking idiot who needs and wants t

Eva Glasrud link

3/6/2021 05:17:26 am

This is why people call you creepy. If I'm sitting by myself at a table with headphones in, if I'm working out at the gym, if I'm talking to my friends at a karaoke night, and you decide you want to "approach" -- that is, interrupt -- me, I have no "burden" to share with you. The idea that I "owe" you something because you interrupted what I was doing to express sexual interest... that's creepy. I have no "burden" -- I wasjust trying to read my book!

If you find the writing condescending, grow a thicker skin. I'm here to help men, not coddle and infantilize them. They should follow my advice if they don't want to be so lonely.

Giovanni

3/6/2021 08:55:49 am

I honestly think it's amazing how many straw man fallacies you can insert on a two paragraph lazy answer that don't address 90% of what I said.

"This is why people call you creepy." — They don't, and I never said they did.

"The idea that I 'owe' you some thing because you interrupted what I was doing to express sexual interest (...)" — I never said you owed anyone anything. You don't owe to reciprocate the advance nor anything like that.

What I'm saying is that the person who is approaching you doesn't owe you a previous mind reading to assert him or herself that the approach was desired, and it is not fair for you to insult or guilt-trip the person (labeling he or she as a creep) for it.

Your accountability is to yourself, as an individual who lives in a society, and is thus susceptible to such a contact, and not to the approacher themselves. I'm just saying you shouldn't randomly insult people who did nothing wrong just because you can't deal with everyday interactions on your own.

It is also worth noting that I said nothing at all about the specific circumstances you used on your argument, and for a approacher to interrupt a conversation with your friends would fall on being impolite (a thing I explicitly said I don't support).

**Therefore, you didn't actually counterargument nothing of what I said, but just a grotesque reproduction of it that you created on your own mind.**

---

Last but not least, I don't think that condescending writing who basically doesn't account the reader as an individual actually helps anyone. For me, this blog is just your opportunity to raise yourself up by talking down to other people, as you even tried to do to me on this comment right here.

Men with no self esteem give you audience for the same reason women's magazines who gave girls 1,000 rules on how to be a good wife sold a lot. The consumers have no self-love or respect, feel the need to be tutored, and therefore you can talk down to them and feel good with yourself because of it.

That's doesn't mean that what you said hurt my feelings. It didn't I don't need to grow a thicker skin, because I was not offended. I was instead annoyed. I felt the need to refute it, because arrogant yet deep flawed articles seems like it calls for a rebuttal. It doesn't matter the subject or who you are. It's just something I like to do.

Debating.

Eva Glasrud link

3/7/2021 07:06:08 pm

Lol. "Debating." If you can't make your point without using boring, cliched jargon, I'm not sure it counts as debating. But okay.

If people don't call you creepy, why are you reading this article?

>> "What I'm saying is that the person who is approaching you doesn't owe you a previous mind reading to assert him or herself that the approach was desired,"

Sometimes it's very obvious before you approach. Sometimes it's only obvious after, at which point you excuse yourself, unless you are creepy, in which case you either don't notice or don't care.

Creepiness can be intentional and malevolent. But it can also be unintentional — whether they knowingly or unknowingly violate your space, time, and boundaries, it's still a violation, and it's still creepy.

>> "Your accountability is to yourself,"

Yet you bitch about women who are curt with men who interrupt them rather than let their time be wasted by some dude they're not interested in.

>> " I'm just saying you shouldn't randomly insult people who did nothing wrong just because you can't deal with everyday interactions on your own."

Typically, women don't resort to random rudeness and screaming. They try it the polite way first. They try subtlety, hints, and politeness. THEN they start "insulting" people -- but to me, they're not the ones being rude. The person who barged in on their space and time then didn't take the hint is rude. The woman is merely taking accountability for herself.

We agree on accountability, right?

>> "For me, this blog is just your opportunity to raise yourself up by talking down to other people, as you even tried to do to me on this comment right here."

This says a lot about you, and not much about me. Some people are critical thinkers. Some people are willing to self-reflect. Some people quickly become defensive and resort to silly ad hominems.

Writing helpful advice for men who are lonely does nothing to help me. I'm an attractive woman. I'm approached by new men every time I leave the house. I also have a bachelor's and master's in psychology. I know what I'm talking about. You can take my advice, or not. It makes no difference to me, but I do feel happy when I get emails thanking me for taking the time, because loneliness is a shitty problem, and I'm happy I've helped reduce it for so many people.

>> "Men with no self esteem give you audience for the same reason women's magazines who gave girls 1,000 rules on how to be a good wife sold a lot. "

Self-esteem isn't what they lack. It's certain social and dating skills. I don't read these housewife magazines you seem so well-versed in, so I can't comment on that.

>> "The consumers have no self-love or respect, feel the need to be tutored, and therefore you can talk down to them and feel good with yourself because of it."

Do you have a citation for that, or is that just your emotions talking, or what?

>> "That's doesn't mean that what you said hurt my feelings. It didn't I don't need to grow a thicker skin, because I was not offended."

If you say so. You seemed upset, but sometimes tone is lost in writing.

Giovanni

3/8/2021 10:05:35 am

>> "Lol. 'Debating.' If you can't make your point without using boring, cliched jargon, I'm not sure it counts as debating. But okay."

I won't reply senseless insults. (Ad hominem #1)

>> "If people don't call you creepy, why are you reading this article?"

Your article was quoted on a question on Quora which was recommended for me to answer.

Even if that wasn't the case, it's not like no other people ever came to this article for reasons other than being called creepy themselves and wanting to stop being called such.

Your article is titled as a question, and people, including women, may be curious for what you consider to be the answer.

Therefore, your deduction doesn't make any sense, and it just shows how you see people who disagree with you, and how quickly you are on jumping to ad hominem.

>> "whether they knowingly or unknowingly violate your space, time, and boundaries, it's still a violation, and it's still creepy."

I don't think your self-perceived boundaries are binding to the rest of humankind who has no way to know them. It's quite self-entitled to think that, actually.

People can reach you, and that's nothing wrong with that. There's common sense and etiquette to be respected of course. But nobody can be called creepy for a slip.

I'd argue that apologizing in case you bother someone, for whatever reason, is common courtesy. But I don't think you are necessarily owed an apology on every circumstance you get bothered by being approached.

>> "Yet you bitch about women who are curt with men who interrupt them rather than let their time be wasted by some dude they're not interested in."

You're the one who wrote a whole article bitching about guys approaching you when you don't want to, because they supposedly have the moral duty to keep you socially comfortable as you can't do it by yourself.

I'm just picking on the flaws about what you wrote. Also, I don't told anything about women being curt. My only statement is that people label and insult others with little basis whatsoever, and I think that is also the case with the word creep.

You don't need to be extremely polite as you deal with every approach, I said absolutely nothing about that.

(By the way, this was Ad Hominem #2 for this comment alone).

>> "The person who barged in on their space and time then didn't take the hint is rude. The woman is merely taking accountability for herself."

I think that depends a lot on context. Some people say they are clear when they aren't. I'm gonna give you an example:

I already had several "friends with benefits". I stated my boundaries clear, and none of them ever mistook any signals, got confused or said that I owed them a committed relationship.

Nonetheless, I knew both a guy and a girl who also had this sort of casual relationships. They said they were clear in communicating their boundaries, but, still, almost all of their counterparts got confused about what was going on between them.

Now I ask you: Was their communication really that clear, yet almost no partner ever was able to understand them? Is it easier for pretty much all of their counterparts to have problems understanding boundaries or for the two of them have problems explaining or acting on their proclaimed boundaries?

But you know;

If the lack of reciprocity to the pick-up was actually clear, the approach was aggressive, insistent, etc., I agree it isn't rude to react in a stronger manner.

>> "This says a lot about you, and not much about me. Some people are critical thinkers. Some people are willing to self-reflect. Some people quickly become defensive and resort to silly ad hominems."

This is extremely hypocritical. First, you were the one who brought ad hominem (and straw man fallacies) to this conversation. Second, this quote is Ad Hominem #3 on and by itself. Third, I was succeeded in your text by the use of some meaningless credentials to prove your authority, which I could label as Ad Hominem #4.

---

However, I want to confess that I thought about it and concluded that I really made a big of a jump in insinuating you keep this blog solely for raising yourself up by demeaning other people.

Unlike you said, It's not true that having this blog does not help you in any way, because it does. You put yourself as an "authority" and has people who either listen to you or who debate you, and you're quick to demean them in someway and repeat how much you're supposedly attractive or whatever.

But maybe part of you really wants to help people, and you don't write just about dating on this blog, so I should say that I was very uncharitable judging you on that fashion, and I'd like to apologize for my excesses.

---

>> "Do you have a citation for that, or is that just your emotions talking, or what?"

You also don't have citations for most of the stuff you said, and it doesn't on and by itself invalidate your points.

The same way you had your reasoning to point out that people wh

Giovanni (Continuation)

3/8/2021 10:09:12 am

(Just finising my last comment since it was cut off)

The same way you had your reasoning to point out that people who read this article are called creepy by women (and I earlier refuted you — and did such without demanding you a source from on a conversation which didn't feature any source so far —, and on which any of us ever brought any source)... I have my reasoning here.

Which guy who loves himself and believes he is minimally competent would look for advice from a girl whose credentials include "being attractive and getting hit on all the time" (the problem is not supposedly being attractive, but saying it on a context it clearly means nothing and repeating it over and over again) and talks condescendingly to them?

I could search for an article which makes a demographic analysis of those who consume dating advice, or search some article talking about how women magazines monetized on the girls' insecurities (there are plentiful of those — that's actually how I learned about magazines with rules for a woman to be a "good wife"). I'm just to busy to do so, and don't think it is necessary for our dialogue.

>> "If you say so. You seemed upset, but sometimes tone is lost in writing."

Actually you had no reason to believe I was upset, the same way you had no reason to believe people called me creepy. The thing is that making this sort of assumption of me can be useful for you to keep that tone of yours and to try to disregard other people's opinions.

Lennert Cornette

3/6/2021 04:19:49 am

This is obviously written by a woman. Friendzoning exists. It doesn't mean women owe sex to guys, it means women KNOWING a guy has feelings for her but REFUSING to tell him how she feels. In stead of being clear she just keeps him around for attention, which is horrible. THAT is what friendzoning means.

Eva Glasrud link

3/6/2021 05:07:32 am

The phrase you are looking for is "leading him on, " not friend zoning.

Lennert Cornette

3/6/2021 05:13:25 am

It's the same. You put a person who has feelings for you into a zone, where they have no chance of getting love or sex. Most men don't do this, while nearly all women do it. It's partly men's fault too, because we should walk away from those situations and not orbit around her together with 50 other dudes. I've had 4 women who had feelings for me, within 2 weeks I told them it wasn't mutual and didn't see them again. It's hard but it's way better than giving someone false hope. It's toxix feminity at its best.

Eva Glasrud link

3/6/2021 05:30:04 am

Ah, so the word you are looking for is "not sex slaves who are obligated to have sex with anyone who is interested." You are correct. Women are not sex slaves who are obligated to have sex with anyone who is interested.

If a man isn't clear about his intentions, he has no right to be upset by her thinking they're friends. If he is clear about his intentions and she leads him on, then this is when you would use the phrase "lead him on."

markgi;

3/7/2021 03:30:17 pm

google the youtube video "women are assholes at bar" from 2012 which was likely done as satire but is now an all too harsh reality for the vast majority of men. this 1 minute 23 second video is an example of the supremely powerful unconscious bias know as the Halo Effect:and why there are only two rules women have for men when it comes to dating:

1) be attractive (and tall)
2) don't be unattractive (and/or short)

Eva Glasrud link

3/7/2021 07:09:31 pm

Youtube is fun, but it's hardly a scholarly journal.

markgil

3/8/2021 02:09:03 am

perhaps not but the video in question is also supported by many studies which prove that women care just as much if not more so than men about a potential partners physical appearance. in fact, just a lack of height alone is enough to exclude interest from the vast majority of women regardless of whatever else a man may have to offer. at only a patheitc 5'6 myself, i know this all too well from my own personal experience. add in a below average face & shaved head and it's game over as far as dating & relationships.

the crux of the problem is that what women find attractive in men is entirely genetic (height, face & hair) while what men find attractive in women is largely under their control through proper diet & exercise.. losing the genetic lottery is one of the worst possible curses so men like myself are forced to miss out on most of what makes life worth living.

Joe

3/9/2021 11:26:17 pm

Markgi,

I watched the video you posted and it greatly exaggerates for comedic effect. There is some truth to it for sure but it doesn't accurately reflect reality, that's what makes it funny.

I read your comments below. Why do you feel like being 5'6" with a clean shaven head means you could never find a mate? Plenty of women like the bald look, you should definitely grow a beard if you haven't to compliment the look. As for the height issue, yes you'll probably have to find girls under 5'6", that's not too hard, they do call them shorties after all. Finally, you say you're unattractive. Assuming you have good personal hygiene and aren't obese then you're a 3 at worst (on the 10 point attractiveness scale). Do you think it could be possible that you could meet a girl who is also a 3 and shorter than 5'6"?

I know it's tempting to think genetics are the only thing that matters but it's not true. Women also are attracted to strong providers wouldn't you agree? Being mature enough to have your finances together and in order is an attractive quality that goes beyond genetics. If you're funny, smart, and successful you will no doubt be able to attract women that are at least as attractive as you.

Ultimately, there are many factors that go into attracting a mate, improve the factors you can control and I'm sure you'll find someone.

Hari

3/10/2021 06:42:30 pm

"If you don't know she would say yes, you either need to practice developing your social skills.."
Or mind reading skills.
Either that, or steer away from people who would shamelessly shame you for not being able to read their minds and seriously believe this is a reasonable expectations.

Eva Glasrud link

3/12/2021 02:32:01 pm

I must be a mind reader, then, because I find it REALLY easy to tell when someone is into me.

I know it's hard to think straight when you're upset, but the part about being 100% certain applies to certain, specific situations, like someone at work. If you are not 100% certain she likes you, don't hit on a woman at work.

Hari

3/12/2021 02:53:58 pm

Wait do I have to be upset in order not to approve men shaming culture? That's new to me. It's not being upset that I feel; disgust, rather. I love the company of high quality girls (which come easy to me as a Latin dancer), but those never shame a man for doing his job as a pursuer, even if he happens to be clumsy and a complete failure in reading the signs. Petty him maybe. Sure. But not shaming him for trying.
I will give you the second paragraph though: women can be in general far more intuitive than men in picking up on people's "energy" (for example, real vs. faked confidence) and hidden social power games and agendas (and well, to be fair, men too can be more obvious in giving the signs themselves than women are!). That I believe to be true. And I wholeheartedly support trying to learn these powers from women that seem to come to them more naturally than they come to us men.

Joe

3/13/2021 01:44:51 pm

What I don't understand is why you believe this article shames men. Would you be willing to give it another read and then cite the part that makes you feel that way so I can understand where you and some of the other posters are coming from? I think a lot of people are either misinterpreting or skimming the article.

To me the article attempts to help men who're feeling defeated by this whole, "ugly guys are creepy" meme. I don't see anywhere in the article where it promotes shaming men. It also doesn't say you can't approach women anywhere in the text, just that you do it respectfully, which seems like good advice to me. The article does recommend not approaching women at work due to the additional risk involved. I'd say that's also good advice for men who're are struggling socially. Do not make your mistakes at work. Make them at the bar, or literally anywhere else that isn't going to affect your livelihood.

Hari

3/15/2021 12:31:08 am

The author defined approaching "respectfully" as mind-reading their woman of interest. This a legit crazy requirement.
In her own words (no. 3 in the article):
"If you're not SURE the answer is yes, don't ask her out."
Now again, does the genetically attractive guy really stop to read minds before he asks out or pursues a woman (to be SURE that the answer would be yes, that is)? I don't think so, because the handsome guy doesn't have to. He knows that a great majority of women would give him the pass based on his looks.
Thing is, NO ONE can be fully sure if a girl wants him back or not until he actually pursues her somehow. So in effect this is fancily-worded rule that applied only to the ugly guy, just worded in sneaky way to avoid explicitly saying that "yes we have double standards."
And since in reality no one can read minds, that fancy shiny phrasing translates into something much simpler: if you're an ugly guy, you should NOT ask your girl of interest out or try to pursue her.
If you're an ugly man, you should understand that you belong to a lower social class, and therefore you shouldn't even try..
Or else..
Because apparently women are somehow entitled *not* to be pursued by ugly men (now to make sure I'm not misinterpreted here: of course women are fully and completely entitled to REJECT anyone, but here I'm talking about trying to pursue, not about the the woman's response to that attempt).
As I said before, what this article suggests is at best unreasonable,
and at worst loaded with tons of self-entitlement and double standards, just worded in a sneaky way to avoid being explicit about it.

Joe

3/15/2021 06:53:05 pm

See this is what I thought. You and many other posters here aren't even reading the article. You obviously just read the title of that section and then got angry and started posting. If you actually read section 3, you'd have seen that it specifically relates to not asking women out AT WORK. Furthermore, it doesn't say anywhere in it that ugly guys shouldn't pursue women, you're adding that. What's even stranger is how you go from, "don't ask a woman out a work unless you're sure the answer is yes" to "If you're an ugly man, you should understand that you belong to a lower social class, and therefore you shouldn't even try.." That's quite the stretch don't you think?

Eva Glasrud link

3/15/2021 07:00:56 pm

Hari, why are you intentionally being a dumb dumb? I shouldn't have had to explain this to you, because it's all right there in the original post, but I did it, anyway, because sometimes people get emotional and it affects their reading comprehension. But at this point, I know you're just being a dumb dumb on purpose.

Paul McKenzie

3/14/2021 04:34:24 pm

The whole concept of a Creepy Guy" is subjective so for Eva to talk about anyone factual or based in science is nonsense. Everything she sights or opines on is anecdotal or opinion-based. What is "creepy" to one woman can "work" (bad wording, I know) on another woman.
Women want it BOTH ways. They want the attention and adoration but only from their chosen mates. They might as well put up an auction block. Please stop this charade of demonize a whole gender by calling us "creepy." Yes, there are MANY men who are complete jerks. There are also MANY men who are treated like dogs because they didn't win the genetic lottery. That is just fact.

Joe

3/14/2021 06:38:04 pm

The author of this article never once claimed her opinions were fact. She simply provided some supporting evidence to better explain why she feels the way she does about this issue. You're free to disagree, but your comment doesn't even specify why you disagree. You're just giving your own anecdotal opinion, which you then hilariously go on to claim "is just fact" after criticizing the author for supposedly claiming her opinion as fact.

Wanting adoration only from their chosen mate isn't, "wanting it both ways". It's one way. The way where people are respectful to one another and don't make unwanted sexually charged comments. If you break this simple social protocol, then it's not that surprising that you may be labelled a creep. Be respectful and it won't matter if you're ugly.

Your auction block analogy is insulting, but the bigger issue is that it doesn't even make sense. Women want to choose their partners based on their own preferences, not be auctioned to the highest bidder.

The one thing you said that I agree with is we shouldn't arbitrarily demonize a gender. In my personal experience, that isn't happening. Respectful guys, ugly or not, are usually treated with respect. The author's article does not condone treating men badly, it simply attempts to provide useful social advice to men who're struggling because they've convinced themselves that being ugly somehow automatically makes you creepy, which it doesn't.

Paul McKenzie

3/14/2021 08:12:08 pm

Joe, you make very good points and I DO paint with a broad brush. Yes, in my LONG experience on this earth, women do want it both ways. It is just the way it is and has always been and will be. Men need to be wise to this for it will never change. Does this give men carte blanche to be rude or to harrass? Of course not. Men should ALWAYS be respectful. They should also open their eyes and be realistic.

The main problem I have is the use of the word "creepy." It is arbitrary and hurtful. I have never been called this word but I see how it could be harmful and demoralizing. I have also witnessed men say and label women some of the very worst epithets possible for horrible reasons. That too is wrong. Maybe I am Pollyanna but let us all try to judge one another on our merits.

Joe

3/14/2021 08:39:37 pm

I may be misinterpreting your meaning, can you clarify what you mean by have it both ways?

For sure, I agree with you that being called creepy would be hurtful. I'm also willing to accept the possibility that some women are willing to use the term a little too loosely on guys that may not deserve the term. I just find that a lot of people are seeing these memes and taking them to heart as a universal truth, and I don't believe that's how it is. In my opinion and experience, the majority of women will not call a guy a creep for a genuine and respectful approach, even if he's ugly.

Paul McKenzie

3/14/2021 08:46:46 pm

"Having it both ways" is an inarticulate phrase. It is also inadequate. What I am trying to say is that women have the actual, tangible power in this transaction. Yes, men sexually harrass. They do this because they are inherently WEAK and have no other charm, charisma, etc to obtain the company of a woman the desire. They abuse their power and bully.
Women control the dating/flirtation/mating dynamic whether they realize it or not. The ones who do realize this want to keep that power. That is what I mean by my in articulate phrasing.

Paul McKenzie

3/14/2021 08:49:01 pm

Joe,
People are taking these memes to heart. Their hearts are wounded. A wounded heart seeks out validation. It seeks out explanation. That is why these memes resonate.

Eva Glasrud link

3/15/2021 07:03:14 pm

Only problem is, seeking out memes instead of self-improvement means you stay. right where you are and never improve. Loneliness is a really sad and terrible problem, and I wish these dudes were more motivated to fix it instead of acting like helpless little children and blaming women.

Joe

3/15/2021 07:04:55 pm

I'm seeing the same thing, lonely men who're struggling and looking for answers. But believing this meme that only attractive men can find a mate in not the answer. Men find comfort in it because it allows to believe that it's women that are the problem, not them. So instead of looking at themselves and working on improving their health, hygeine, financial maturity, and social skills, they wallow in sorrow believing it's all hopeless and hating women for not being attracted to them.

Would you not agree that a man who is at least average in all the above categories (something we can all control about ourselves) could attract a woman of similar attractiveness to himself?

Paul McKenzie

3/15/2021 07:15:08 pm

Yes, men need not wallow in self-pity. Women should also not go out of their way to make men feel less than human also. Many men are jaded because many women have completely demoralized them and humiliated them. Woman have had the same done to them by men also.
Earlier, I stated that men should never ask a co-worker out and Eva agreed. Upon reflection, I am disappointed that Eva did not suggest that women should also not ask male co-workers out either. I don't believe in double-standards and I believe in the evening out of power dynamics.

Joe

3/15/2021 07:37:18 pm

I 100% agree that any woman who takes pleasure in needlessly putting a genuine man down is probably in the wrong. We all deserve love and respect. I also agree that sometimes this happens and it hurts, but learning to build up our confidence is another important self improvement skill. Once you have it, you just laugh in the face of rejection. This is also another trait women find attractive that can be learned.

You also have a good point about these issues applying to both genders. And I agree, all genders should be very careful about pursuing partners at work. There's too much at stake with a failed encounter. You're right that this article aimed primarily at men, but I think that's because male dominated groups like the incels have become very vocal about this subject and I think the author was addressing them directly.

Hari

3/15/2021 08:42:58 pm

@Joe
You're right. I had been reading from several websites the day I made my comment and I now realize I have mixed up my impressions from a couple!! But now giving this article another fresh read, I find myself in agreement with it (as well as your comment). I also took the time to read some other articles in this blog and I like what I read so far. I'm going to keep going through it through my week - looks like a promising blog!
@Eva
I probably was indeed a dumb-dumb in the past two days because I had been reading a few articles about the same subject from different blogs simultaneously and I obviously mixed them up in my mind somehow and wasn't fair to you. However I like to believe that in general I'm not dumb-dumb, but no one is perfect. :)

Joe

3/15/2021 09:55:52 pm

Hi again Hari,

It's an easy mistake to make. Thanks for taking the time to reread and for clarifying the mix up.

Micha

3/23/2021 11:55:43 am

Eva, I have to say, looking at your pictures, if you would approach me, I would find you creepy. I wouldn't like to talk to you first.
But I would just accept that you want to show me, that despite your looks, you're an interesting person, I would let you talk to me and convince me that you're not wasting my time. If you actually have something to say, I would continue. If not, I would honestly and politely say "thank you very much, I appreciate your courage to talk to me, but you're not my type".
How hard is this sentence for a girl? And don't give us this bullshit about "asking once is okay", that's obviously not what the girls in the tweets and so many other girls think.
You talk a lot about men not being entitled to girls. True.
But you forget that girls aren'T entitled to getting only attention from guys they find attractive. As long as they remain in thisi comfortable situation of not even trying to approach guys, they have to live with the fact that the hot guy doesn't approach her, because she's only average and the ugly guy approaches her.

One final question:
How exactly do you imagine an ugly guy should convince a girl of him being interesting and fun, if you actually think he shouldn't be allowed to talk to her in the first place because she would find that creeoy? How tf can you actually have the opinion that some guys aren't "worth" enough to talk to a girl they like?! This idea is so stupid. Just be honest and say what multiple studies found out:
the most important thing for girls are ghe guy's height, looks and money. That's it. It doesn't matter if you'Re intelligent, funny or a great personality. You will never have a real chance with a girl who doesn#T find you attractive because of your height. looks or money.

Eva Glasrud link

3/23/2021 05:18:10 pm

Micah, I can tell from your writing style and thought process that I would never be attracted to you; therefore, if I were hitting on you, it WOULD be creepy, as I would clearly have some ulterior motive. But thanks for the Instagram follow!

>> ""thank you very much, I appreciate your courage to talk to me, but you're not my type".

I agree. When asked out by someone you're not interested in, this is a great thing to say.

However, a lot of dudes that women find creepy don't take such a direct approach. They just kind of buzz around and linger and cling and don't pick up on social cues.

>> "But you forget that girls aren'T entitled to getting only attention from guys they find attractive."

Well, yeah, we kind of are. If we're clearly not interested and you keep hitting on us, you are being creepy, and we will warn our friends about you. You are the one who is being entitled in this case.

>> "As long as they remain in thisi comfortable situation of not even trying to approach guys..."

Where did you get this idea? La La Land? Definitely not reality. Men do more approaching than women, but every woman I know would approach a man she found interesting.

>> "How exactly do you imagine an ugly guy should convince a girl of him being interesting and fun, if you actually think he shouldn't be allowed to talk to her in the first place because she would find that creeoy?"

Going back to the first thing I said. I don't know if you're DISunderstanding because you're emotional, or if you've MISunderstood something I was very clear about and have reiterated repeatedly, but either way, it's not attractive.

Go back and read the article. Maybe a little more carefully this time.

>> "Just be honest and say what multiple studies found out:
the most important thing for girls are ghe guy's height, looks and money."

I'd LOVE to see the citation! :P

Hari

3/23/2021 05:41:46 pm

Micha,
I was in your shoes only a week or two ago and it made it easier for me to misunderstand and it didn't help that I was reading other articles and had them mixed up in my mind. I invite you to have a second careful read. It's a good article. It takes the role of the messenger of a cruel world that we'd better come to terms with whether we like it or not; Eva is just a messenger of bad news but it's not her fault.
The world is deigned to be more challenging for those who are less good-looking, even if the people who're involved in the situation are themselves decent, good people. It's nobody's fault really but it is what it is and again, all Eva is doing is delivering this bad news to you, and I believe it is in everyone's favor to accept reality and embrace it, regardless of how harsh it is.

Paul McKenzie

3/23/2021 02:11:12 pm

Micha, your final point is valid: many women care only about money, height, and looks. One the other hand, many men are just as damn superficial. Secondly (and most importantly) calling Eva "creepy" truly cheapens your post. We men detest the ambiguous label of "creepy" so why foist it back on a female? It serves zero purpose.

In a "perfect world" looks, station in life, etc wouldn't matter. This world is flawed though and so are people. People are damn cruel. We need to quit looking for Mr or Ms Perfect and find Me or Ms Least Cruel. Sometimes that is the best chance for happiness

Ah Dh

3/29/2021 01:59:17 pm

I like how every single point here is attacking men, and not a single point is talking about what women do wrong...

Yes no man is entitled to a woman’s body. But by that exact same logic, women should know they’re not entitled to a man’s love, relationships or attention - because literally every single woman alive thinks she deserves a Prince Charming and a happy ending.

Same way women think 90% of men are unf*ckable, men think 90% of women are unlovable. But guess which of these 2 undisputed obvious truths is allowed to be said, and which one is deemed sexist?

Paul

3/29/2021 03:35:47 pm

None of this is ever going to be solved or reconciled. Women want what they want, when they want it. And they get it. Men are assholes and contribute to the problem.
Derek Chauvin went on trial today for killing George Floyd. He is getting love letters and women are talking about "how sexy" he is. This happens A LOT. My question is then, why is an alleged murderer (or in Chris Watts' case, convicted) sexy and NOT creepy?

Joe

3/29/2021 04:18:01 pm

Hi Ah Dh, and welcome to the discussion. I'm curious, why do you feel like this article attacks men? Would you cite the part you found offensive so we can get a better idea where you're coming from on that?

Doesn't every woman deserve a happy ending and every man too? We all deserve to feel loved, wouldn't you agree?

I don't think either of those statements is sexist. I think it speaks more to how the beauty standards have raised to unattainable levels. It's a problem for all genders, not just men. I think regardless of gender, anyone making statements like that would be seen as shallow.

Ah Dh

3/29/2021 04:33:17 pm

The whole article is criticizing men’s behaviors and attitudes - some of it is legitimate and some isn’t. All that is fine, my problem however is that absolutely nothing in this article or in feminist ideology in general seems to criticize women’s behaviors and attitudes.

The author brings up the valid point that men are not entitled to sex. However it never even crosses their minds that perhaps by that same token, women are not entitled to a man’s love, money, time, attention, affection or a relationship. No not everyone deserves a happy ending or what they want, and people certainly aren’t entitled to anything.

But even the most ardent feminist believes she’s entitled to a man’s love if she so chooses. That’s just as wrong as a man thinking he’s entitled to a woman’s body. Yet I legitimately have never seen a single feminist who acknowledges this basic double standard.

Joe

3/29/2021 07:06:02 pm

So you're upset that an article that was written specifically for men, doesn't criticize women's behaviour!? The article was written to provide dating advice to men, so naturally, the article is critical of men's behaviours. It comes off as constructive criticism to me. Did you read this article or just skim the headlines and mistake this article for something else? Asking genuinely because it's an easy thing to do, we've all been there. Anyway, the title is what 'MEN don't understand when THEY complain . . .' If you wanted to read an article critiquing feminist ideology then you ended up in the wrong place is all.

I'm sure the author is completely aware that neither gender is entitled to sex. I agree that it wasn't specifically stated, but again, the article was written as dating advice for men, so it addresses them specifically.

I don't know any feminists who believe they're entitled to a man, I'm pretty sure the very notion would be ridiculous to any true feminist. It would be contrary the underlying foundation of feminism, which is equality.

Ah Dh

4/3/2021 11:53:36 am

"If you wanted to read an article critiquing feminist ideology then you ended up in the wrong place is all."

OK where's the "right place" to see feminists who actually have some introspection, self-awareness and don't blame men for absolutely everything? Because much like the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot, feminists being self-critical is a fairy tale myth that many claim exists, but actually doesn't.

Their worldview clearly shows they believe everything is men's fault in every situation all the time always. I have never seen a feminist call out women for their numerous double standards or hypocrisy, because that contradicts with their worldview that everything is men's fault.

Joe

4/3/2021 01:32:56 pm

I don't know off hand where the right place would be, as it's not something I personally read about much. All I can say is that an article on dating advice for men is probably not it. The article makes no mention of feminism and doesn't even discuss feminism.

As for feminists blaming men for everything, I don't know how to even respond to that. What does that even mean? Do women blame men for the Earth orbiting the sun? What about the Fukushima melt down? World War 2 maybe? Sorry for being sarcastic but you're making a very broad blanket statement here, claiming that it is true, and providing nothing to justify it, not even an example of it occurring. I've seen plenty of women speak out in favour of men's rights, although I can't say whether those women are actually feminists. But that brings about another point, is the author here even a feminist? Do you assume all women you meet are feminists? Have you ever read any actually published feminist works? We've all seen some crazy outspoken women on Youtube claim to be a feminist and go on to make a bunch of bigoted comments, but you have to ask yourself, is she really a feminist at that point? Just because she goes viral does that mean she represents all feminists everywhere? As for them not being self critical, I'd say 95% of the population is not self-critical. We are all the heroes of our own story, so calling out feminists specifically for that just seems silly.

I personally believe you wouldn't have even bothered to post at all if the author had been named Evan and not Eva. I'm going to make an assumption here, that you're normally into reading incel, mens rights, or red pill material based on the way you speak about the subject, and that when you saw this article with a woman daring to comment on a man's behaviour it triggered you a little. If I'm right about that, then I strongly encourage you to be open minded on other viewpoints.

Anyway, I'm always open to discussing it further but you need to be a little more specific about the things that you disagree with.

Ah Dh

4/3/2021 03:26:42 pm

You said this: "you're making a very broad blanket statement here, claiming that it is true, and providing nothing to justify it, not even an example of it occurring."

Then followed it up with this: "I'm going to make an assumption here, that you're normally into reading incel, mens rights, or red pill material based on the way you speak about the subject, and that when you saw this article with a woman daring to comment on a man's behaviour it triggered you a little."

Completely contradicting statements but OK.

It's completely off-mark to say I'm not open-minded and don't read opposing viewpoints. I am extremely pro-free speech and pro-knowledge to the degree that despite me being an Arab Muslim, I even read extremely hostile anti-Muslim rhetoric from the far-right and even white supremacists. It's difficult and very emotionally uncomfortable, but I do this so I can get an insight on why the general Western public seems to hate us so much, and to become more knowledgeable about opposing viewpoints.

My girlfriend of 8 years is a lawyer at a women's shelter. If I was so red-pilled and into incel rhetoric, then obviously I wouldn't date a girl for 8 years whose literal job description is to legally defend women against men. Like I said, I try my best to grit my teeth and read opposing viewpoints, so yes I have read a lot of feminist and MRA rhetoric to understand the 2 extremes. I am intrigued by 19th century Eastern world feminists such as Huda Shaarawy for example, and see a lot more merit in her stances than with modern Western third wave feminism. For the most part, I cringe at red pill and incel type of stuff, yet they do make a couple of good points whether I like it or not. I actually agree with more concepts in feminism than MRA rhetoric, but I also find that MRA's arguments tend to come from a much more viscerally honest place based on undeniable human nature, than feminist arguments.

I link this article to feminism, because it comes from a similar ideology and though pattern as most of third wave feminism. The original form of feminism focused on very legitimate stances of women's rights, equal pay, maternity leave, no legal ramifications for promiscuity etc. However, articles like this and third wave feminism in general have created a big spooky vague unidentifiable blanket-scapegoat boogeyman called patriarchy.

Nobody can actually define what the patriarchy is, and to me it is nothing more than a political euphemism with the intent of creating plausible deniability against misandry. Meaning whenever feminists want to criticize men but think it'll sound bad, they conveniently replace the word men with "patriarchy" to escape being called sexist/ misandrist. It's no different than right-wing rhetoric that circumvents accusations of racism by using political euphemisms such as "illegal immigrants" to mean Latin Americans, "thugs and criminals" to mean Black people, "terrorists and extremists" to mean Arabs, and "good honest hard-working tax-paying Americans" to mean the White people you want to vote for you.

If you still need specific examples of the rampant culture of man-blaming in feminist and women's spheres, I could write a whole book on that.

Joe

4/3/2021 04:35:57 pm

"Completely contradicting statements but OK." - Those two statements were not only unrelated but also not contradictory. You made an obviously false statement and tried to pass it off as true. I made an assumption, and was honest about it being just an assumption. You tried to present your personal opinion about feminist beliefs as a fact. I gave you my personal opinion and was clear that it was only my opinion. You were probably just exaggerating for effect, but it's hard to know who is doing that and who is just echochambering something they read.

"It's completely off-mark to say I'm not open-minded and don't read opposing viewpoints."
- For clarity, I said that IF my assumption was true, THEN you should try be more open minded, (used caps to highlight, not to be antagonistic). I never said you were closed minded, just that your arguments and the tone of your writing were giving me the impression that you were close-minded on this particular issue. Glad that you are open-minded about free speech and Arab issues and that's great, it shows that you are a critical thinker should make the debate more interesting.

I would be curious about which aspects of MRA you found attractive but that is really off topic for this article and will clutter the discussion board here with unrelated material.

My biggest question is why this article reminds you of third wave feminism? I personally never made the association at all. I get what you're saying about the potential misuse of the word "patriarchy" but the author never uses the word. In my opinion, the article reads as pretty genuine dating advice for men. It says, here are the behaviours that women find creepy and why you shouldn't do them. It also tries to dispel this idea that only handsome men can find dates and attempts to provide some practical advice on how shy or unattractive men can find success. That was my take anyway.

Chris

4/2/2021 06:22:40 pm

Great article, not for its content but for the insight it gives to undesirable men. These are all lessons I actually learned in high school.

Here's the kicker though: I don't approach women. I haven't approached a woman since I was 19 and I'm 33 now. Not in bars (not that I go to bars all that often), not at parties, not at meetups and most definitely not at work

Unless I absolutely MUST talk to a woman in a professional capacity I simply don't speak to women unless first spoken to.

Yet even with these precautions I still have issues at work because women find my simple presence to be creepy and unsettling. I often notice women actively avoiding me not only at work, but also on the street.

And let me make this clear: I am not looking for dates, nor sex. I just want to function in society and be able to feed myself and keep a roof over my head. But even this is hard because I creep women out only with my mere presence in a room.

So what is a man like me supposed to do just to live in society?
For clarification, I am hygiene conscious, take care about what clothes I wear as to not draw negative attention.

I am somewhat overweight but not obese (5'11" and 180 lbs), because of a health condition. And starvation diets only take you so far so I have a bit of a belly.

Is my being fat and not hot reason enough to get a hard time at my job and called creepy for no good reason?

Paul

4/2/2021 06:38:30 pm

Chris,

Don't define yourself as "creepy." It is a prison you have out yourself into. This whole thread/piece is flawed because no person has the right to call another person "creepy" because they don't want to sleep with them. It is pure BS. Calling someone "ugly", "unattractive", or "plain" is 1,000x better than "creepy." What the hell is "creepy" anyway?

I have said it before on here and I will say it again. Many women want to be SHOWERED with attention from men. They want all the ass-grabbing, goo-goo eyes, and come-ons. They just want it from the men they they want. Is this a double-standard? Hell yes it is. Will it ever change? Hell no it won't. Don't despair but also don't think it will ever change. Just navigate these rocky waters and stay out of the HR office

Joe

4/2/2021 07:24:18 pm

Women don't go around calling men creepy because they find those men unattractive typically. They call men creepy when men engage in socially unacceptable behaviour, like flirting before establishing mutual interest.

I don't see the double standard. Do you think either man, hot or not, is going to get approval from their mothers for going around randomly grabbing women's asses? Of course not, because it is wrong, and gross, and creepy for both men, regardless of appearance. Same with unwanted sexual comments or advances. You admit this in your own answer, "They just want it from the men they they want", but here's what I don't get: Why do you portray this as something unfair that women do? Nobody likes unwanted sexual advances. Le me put it to you this way, I think it'll help you understand: How would you feel if another man kept eyeing you up at work and making comments about how he just loved your body?

Joe

4/2/2021 07:34:41 pm

Hi Chris,

I'm sorry to hear that you're struggling. It sounds like a unique situation.

Can I ask, are you still attracted to women? Is it possible that even though you've decided not to pursue dating that you maybe sneak peaks at them and appreciate their form? Maybe still harbour crushes that could modify your behaviours in a way they can detect? I mean, that you might be doing these things subconsciously, I'm not accusing you of anything btw, just trying to better understand your situation.

Can you maybe expand on some of the problems you've had?

Also, how can you know it's your attractiveness that is causing them to feel creeped out? A lot of people out there, like folks on the autistic spectrum, tend to struggle with facial expressions and body language, and this causes them to appear weird and sadly creepy.

Paul

4/2/2021 07:38:14 pm

There most certainly is a double-standard and it works the other way also. Men label women just as unfairly as women do men.
Secondly, if a man objectified me? I would laugh and let it roll of it had no effect on my job. That is NOT harrassment.

Joe

4/2/2021 07:58:43 pm

Again what is the double standard? You seem to be suggesting it's okay for attractive men to go around touching women and making unwanted sexual comments but that it's not okay for ugly guys. I'm saying that's not true, it's wrong for both, and therefore not a double standard.

Who said anything about harassment? We're talking about creepy, two different things. I meant more then objectified. He's not just checking you out but clearly crushing on you for months, making physical contact with you when he can (not in a sexual way, just as close to it as possible without being overtly sexual harassment), your coworkers are noticing too and laughing about it behind your back. Would you still just laugh it off? Even if you would, would you not agree that his behaviour is unwanted and that it is creepy and social unacceptable?

Paul

4/2/2021 08:12:13 pm

If you don't know or recognize the double-standard between what "handsome" and "ugly" men get away with vis-a-vis women in the workplace and everywhere else then you are an infant, a 40 IQ dullard, being dishonest, or all of the above.
Secondly, I stated that the word "creepy" is vague and HURTFUL. It is useless and only stains with it's cruelty. Rebuff an unwanted advance, take it to superiors if it keeps up, but labeling people with 7th-grade level epithets does nothing but foment strife between men and women.
I also started MUCH earlier that if women don't want to be approached by "creepy" men then they shouldn't be approached at all. No one should be approaching anyone at work. I live and work in a Real World and I see the Man/Woman Dynamic everyday. Adulthood is just an older version of a Middle School dance. Petty jealousy, games, etc. Unfortunately, many folks like it that way; as long as someone isn't "creepy."

Joe

4/2/2021 08:43:37 pm

Seems I touched a nerve. Sorry, I'm not trying to offend you, I just disagree with you.

Calling me stupid doesn't prove your point. What exactly are attractive men getting away with? It's certainly not grabbing and cat calling any woman he wants at work or anywhere else for that matter. If an attractive man is flirting at work it's usually because he knows the person he's flirting with has interest. If he hasn't established this mutual interest and he's being inappropriate, then he is equally wrong. In my view, neither man is getting way with anything, both have to establish mutual interest first, therefore no double standard exists.

"I also started MUCH earlier that if women don't want to be approached by "creepy" men then they shouldn't be approached at all" - This makes no sense to me. Women are fine with respectful approaches, why should they have to endure creepy ones if they want the respectful ones? You are saying that it should be perfectly acceptable for a guy to approach a strange woman and say, "I like your tits" and she should have to be okay with that because she was also okay with the other guy who approached respectfully? How about the rule is, all people of all genders approach respectfully all the time?

"No one should be approaching anyone at work."
- Why is that? If she's using appropriate social protocol and making sure there is mutual interest first then it's fine. Note the author's point #3, applies equally to women, she shouldn't unless she's pretty sure the interest is there.

I've found that adulthood is a lot less like middle school. Sure there's a few people that never grow up, but they're the minority from my experience working with others.

Paul

4/2/2021 09:12:41 pm

I have seen "Attractive" men get away with BLATANT sexual harrassment multiple times throughout my work life. It is always brushed off as "cute" or "sweet." THAT is precisely the double-standard.
Life is NOT fair. The attractive, the rich, the connected, live in a different atmosphere. The rules do NOT apply to them much of the time. I live in a real world where double-standards exist and thrive. I live in a world where a word like "creepy" is tossed around in a cavalier manner regardless of how it stings and brands. Every missive I have written on this thread has dealt with two themes: how the term "creepy" is unfair and how it perpetuates a double-standard.

Joe

4/2/2021 11:10:11 pm

Again, are we talking about sexual harassment or creepiness? Different things. I don't know how you define sexual harassment but I seriously doubt you've watched men just go around harassing women and getting away with it, it's a pretty serious thing. What you probably actually saw was a man, flirting with a women who was mutually interested in flirting, and the man didn't get in trouble because there's nothing wrong with mutual flirting. He didn't "get away" with anything. That's why your statement makes no sense, if she thought it is was "cute" then she was BLATANTLY into it, and if she was into it, then it is by definition NOT sexual harassment. What you're not understanding is point one of the article. Another example: If I try staring down a random girl's blouse as she walks buy and I say nice tits, that's creepy whether I'm handsome or ugly. If I do it to my girlfriend or a girl that I have established is into me in that way, then it's not.

The term creepy is not inherently unfair. It's perfectly justified in many situations and one of those is UNWANTED sexual advances. So again, ugly or handsome, is irrelevant, all that matters is mutual interest, so where is the double standard? It applies to both. Ugly guys have no problem making sexually charged comments to women they've established MUTUAL interest in, just like everyone else.

Paul

4/3/2021 01:49:21 pm

If a man says "nice tits" and she enjoys it and digs it it IS inappropriate work behavior and they both should be punished. The "hot" should not be able to get away with what the "ugly" guy cannot. The woman, who is engaged on this double-standard should be disciplined, period. If you cannot see this, sorry for you.

Joe

4/3/2021 02:30:22 pm

I can't see it because your viewpoint rests on a number of assumptions you're making that I don't share to be true.

First answer me this: do you really and truly believe that if I hire a perfect 10 male model to walk into random office buildings and compliment the female worker's breasts that he's not going to get into trouble. You believe everyone will see that he's attractive and just say, "oh what a sweet guy?"

I think you'll find, as always, context is everything. "Nice tits" is not automatically inappropriate in the workplace in all situations. I know you want to try boil this down into a simple general rule but human interaction doesn't work that way, we're complex. In my experience in the workplace, management couldn't care less as long the work gets done and all the employees feel safe and comfortable. Not all workplaces are the same, some are more conservative than others. If a guy is saying "nice tits" to a female coworker working at cash register at McDonalds, then yep, pretty inappropriate to be engaging in sexual conversation in front of the customers and fellow employees. Again, do you really believe the perfect 10 guy is going to "get away" with this as you say simply because he is handsome? The main problem here is the publicity of the action, not the comment itself. Again, both men would be punished. Now if the comment was made back in the break room away from others, it would not be inappropriate if the girl was into it. Again, in this scenario, neither man would be punished. So if you actually look at it the punishment is the same, so where is the double standard?

If you want to convince me of this apparent double standard you are talking about then you simply need to describe a scenario in which it actually occurs, so far you've only claimed these scenario's exist and provided not a single example.

Chris

4/3/2021 12:06:27 am

I might have looked at a woman from time to time but I don't stare at women. And at work I definitely make sure not to look at women unless I have to (they're talking to me).

Back when I had women friends & acquaintances, with whom I could speak somewhat freely they told me my eyes looked crazy and I was weird.

TBH I was bullied in school and HS and developed severe social anxiety that likely makes me look awkward.

I'm not saying this happens all the time. Most of the time women simply ignore me which is OK. But many times on the bus or subway I've had a woman sit down across from me, then she looks at me, gets up and moves to the end of the cart.

Or I walk down the street with my grocery bags and some lady notices me, looks at me and then runs away.

These are just random people whom I don't approach, nor engage.

And again you're all talking about dating I'm just talking about normal day to day interaction.

At work my women superiors criticize any perceived flaw and call me into review meetings far more often than the guys do.

Working from home the past year has made things both better and worse. Better because I can just turn off my camera when I have to talk to women at work. Worse because talking on point is a lot harder to do with "share screen" than it's in person.

Joe

4/3/2021 11:45:50 am

That's terrible, society can definitely be cruel to people with social anxieties. Humans are very tribal by nature and tend to be prejudiced against those who we feel are different. More of us need to be making a conscious effort to challenge those assumptions.

You've probably heard the saying the eyes are the window to the soul? Eye contact along with body language make up such a big part of communication, and so people who never developed those communication skills stand out right away and are often unfairly ostracized for it. It may even be one of the reasons you were targeted by bullies when you were young.

It's definitely not a nice feeling when someone goes out of their way to get away from you like that. I think most men, myself included, have experienced some form of that where a woman will cross the street, for example, to just keep a safe distance. Lots of people feel offended by it, but I don't personally. I know she's really not moving away from me, but rather some anonymous person she doesn't know. At 5'11" you're probably notably taller than most women, and that can make you seem more imposing.

The real shame of it, is that people like you notice all this and tend to withdraw even further as a result. But that doesn't really work either because people notice you never socialize and either think you don't like them or that that you're anti-social and you end up labelled weird anyway. It really sucks, I have a few friends who struggle similarly.

Have you ever considered maybe seeing someone and getting a proper diagnosis? If you could let your supervisors know that you have a social disorder of some type they may be a lot more understanding of your behaviour. I obviously don't know them, maybe they're just jerks in general, so you'll have to make your own judgment call on that, but in my experience most people are understanding once they realize the truth.

Another thing you could try is finding social groups for introverts or people with social anxieties. It'll give you a way to at least practice socializing in a safer atmosphere, maybe even meet someone who actually "gets you", ya know?

Chris

4/9/2021 11:05:00 pm

It's not really a shame. I am what I am and it's as difficult for me to change this at 30 as it would be for anyone else.

I can't suddenly become well versed in things everyone else likes just so I can "hold the mood" of the room together. When I do try to socialize people realize I'm not "normal" and simply push me away.

Imagine someone put a violin in your hand and told you that if you can't play Paganini to perfection you'd be outcast from your social group. That's pretty much how I feel in every social situation. If I don't answer it's bad and if I do answer it comes out weird and that's also bad.

I've actually had a guy I used to know tell me "I know a crowd you'd definitely fit in with but I won't introduce you to them because you'd ruin my reputation". Why he felt he had to tell me that I still don't understand.

And I've tried both therapy and psychiatric help. The psychiatrists told me there's nothing they can do except give me anxiety pills -- that have fairly nasty side effects.

If you had to choose between taking pills just to be ignored by society but left unable to earn your keep (the pills caused me to fall asleep at work and be unable to concentrate) what would you do?

At my job as a software engineer I can't afford to lose my ability to think clearly.

And society doesn't really offer any kind of safety net for men, in fact 3/4 of homeless people are men.

Joe

4/10/2021 04:21:21 pm

Change is definitely difficult and really you may never truly change but you may be able to pick up some coping mechanisms that help you blend in a little more. You're right though, you shouldn't have to.

Your violin analogy is a good one

That guy sounds like a jerk, and it makes no sense, if he thought you'd fit in then why would there be a problem that would hurt his reputation?

Those meds can definitely be disruptive for sure. If I had to choose I'm sure I'd make the same choice as you.

What society are you in? I'm assuming the US? There's plenty of support for men and everyone on general here in most countries with universal healthcare.

You're in a hard situation for sure. I can't really offer much more in the way of advice. I can say I have a few friends with pretty severe social or psychological disorders and autism spread across friend groups and they are all accepted in the groups despite their challenges.Everyone understands and accepts that that is just how they are. Maybe going out to events that tend to draw more introverted crowds like programming competitions or board game meetups might help you find friend groups that are more understanding.

Paul

4/3/2021 04:23:19 pm

Anyone who can do the mental gymnastics to actually state that "nice tits" in the work place isn't ALWAYS improper is not a serious person. Since you have shown yourself to be the kind of person who can and will triangulate ANYTHING, this discussion is effectively over. Reason and what passes as common sense eludes you thoroughly. Enjoy your Bizarro World

Joe

4/3/2021 04:58:53 pm

Paul, you didn't answer any of my questions and never once explained how your supposed double standard works despite me explaining multiple times why it isn't a double standard, including providing detailed examples demonstrating this. All you've done is reiterate your initial position over and over while providing no support for why you believe what you do. Honestly it's a relief that you don't want to discuss it further because you obviously weren't that interested in the debate in the first place.

All I can say is reread the article and pay particular close attention to points 1 and 4, they will help you understand why the double standard doesn't exist.

Chris

4/9/2021 10:46:24 pm

Having read pretty much every comment in this thread, unless I missed one, there hasn't been a single man who said that making crass backhanded compliments at work as a way to ask a woman out is an acceptable thing to do.

And yes, as little as 20 years ago, people were meeting, dating and getting married in the workplace. Of course social norms change, and it's okay to approach the issue from this angle.

Social norms have changed and we have to accept them and live within this framework. If society deemed dating at work is unacceptable, then so it is.

That doesn't mean you have to accuse every man who appears "creepy" to you of catcalling their women coworkers with no proof.

Joe

4/10/2021 04:37:44 pm

I'm not sure what you're meaning by this comment. We were not trying to say those behaviours were okay. I proposed the example of the cat call because Paul claimed he had witnessed attractive men getting away blatant sexual harassment at work and I was trying to demonstrate how unlikely a claim that was. It was also off topic and unrelated to the article.

When you say"That doesn't mean you have to accuse every man who appears "creepy" to you of catcalling their women coworkers with no proof. " What do you mean?

I've been arguing all along that this is very unlikely to occur even to ugly guys. The majority of women will treat you with respect if you do the same, regardless of your attractiveness, at least that is my experience. Now, if the man has been crushing on her for months, leering, or any other obvious behaviour, (that she is not reciprocating), then yeah, she may call you creepy, but the man would very likely deserve it at that point, wouldn't he?

Sheikh Yerbooty

4/22/2021 11:13:57 am

Here's the ugly truth: We as human beings do indeed have a bias towards attractive people. Attractive people get treated better and have more leniency than unattractive people. It makes NO DIFFERENCE what their sex, or gender, or sexual orientation happens to be. This is a universal rule that is found in all cultures. It is 100% unfair. But at the end of the day, as the late Randy Pausch once said: We can't change the cards we are dealt in life. We can only choose how to play the hand.

Also, attractiveness isn't completely objective. When it comes to approaching people in the workplace, you really have to learn to read the signals that people send out. If you can't read those signals, err on the side of caution and hold back. Otherwise you're putting your job and reputation at risk.

Joe

4/22/2021 12:20:37 pm

I agree that there are many proven benefits to being attractive.

Would you also agree that simply being ugly does not make you creepy, even if it doesn't net you any special advantage?

Paul

4/22/2021 02:17:48 pm

Joe, I have seen what I have seen. I am a grown man of 50--not some kid. I have seen the Politics of the Sexual Workplace change; both for the better and for the worse. For you to doubt my veracity is insulting.
Secondly, I reiterate: sexual harrassment is real. What is also real is VERY healthy double-standard which puts men in corner from which there is no escape. Many women (subconsciously) enjoy this double-standard because it does empower them greatly. That is human nature and is just fact.
Are there truly monster male predators and horrible women who cry "sexual harrassment" when there isn't any? Yes, but it is a miniscule percentage. Most people of both genders are just trying to navigate some really rocky seas. I will once again state that using the word "creepy" is a step backwards; just as label it Ng a female co-worker as "loose" is.

What Men Don't Understand When They Complain, "It's Only Creepy If The Guy Isn't Hot."

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