What Men Don't Understand When They Complain, "It's Only Creepy If The Guy Isn't Hot."

8/29/2018

We've all heard dudes lament that flirting/hitting on girls/commenting on women's bodies is "only creepy when the guy is unattractive."

Some women boldly declare the same.

"If a sexy man compliments me, that's fine. If a ugly man looks at me too long, that's harassment." (See also: Here's How One Pretty Woman Deals With The "Constant Stares and Compliments" From Men.)

"It's only sexual harassment if he's ugly and poor." (See also: Yes, Money DOES Make You Happier - If You Use a Log Scale.)

"If he's cute, it's called flirting, but if he's ugly that's sexual harassment and you'd better go to HR." (See also: Why You Should Flirt With Basically Everyone.)

Sure, reality is harsh... but so is self-reflection. So let's "unpack" this a little to figure out what's really going on, and how you can do better in your romantic pursuits.

1. In order to be fun and not creepy, FLIRTING HAS TO BE MUTUAL.

Flirting is fun. But only when advances are thrilling, meaningful, or desired. Flirting, like kissing, sex, and... I dunno, tandem skydiving?... is only fun when both people are into it. (See also: Dear Confused Dudes: If You Had To Grab Her By The Head and Restrain Her, It Wasn't a "Kiss.")

Unwanted sexual advances are gross.

I'm not going to sugarcoat things, because that's a waste of everyone's time: if you're attractive, your advances are more likely to be mutual. If you're unattractive, your advances are less likely to be mutual.

Especially in a situation where you're chatting up someone new, who knows little about you other than what you look like.

Facts are facts. The only way around this is to pretend evolution and biology and psychology don't exist.

Yes, all else equal, women like men who are tall and handsome. BUT. What's going to be a lot more important than that in the long-run is his ability to provide. That he has mature and masculine qualities. That he is a loving, considerate, compassionate individual.

And that he's smart. According to Plomin and Deary's expert review, Genetics and intelligence differences: five special findings (2014), "Assortative mating is greater for intelligence (spouse correlations ~0.40) than for other behavioural traits such as personality and psychopathology (~0.10) or physical traits such as height and weight (~0.20)."

In other words, Hollywood is wrong. Opposites do not attract. We like people who are like us -- with respect to anything from political opinions to religious background to physical attractiveness to intelligence. But we especially like people who are like us with respect to intelligence.

But I don't know how intellectually sexy you are if we've only just met! And I'm going to assume you're intellectually repulsive if you think the way to win my heart is to give some cheap compliment about my body or appearance.

So if you're someone of below-average attractiveness, maybe instead of hitting on women you barely know... get to know them first. Learn charisma and be respectful. Remember: it's not that girls don't like guys who are "desperate" or "too available." It's that you ignored her clearly-stated preferences and boundaries.

Once they feel comfortable around you, once they start to appreciate your intelligence, sense of humor, and other positive qualities, THEN it may be time to start flirting.

2. I really shouldn't have to say this, but you're not entitled to a woman's attention.

Guess what? It's okay for women to be attracted to other women. It's okay for men to be attracted to skinny women. It's okay for men to only want to date women with vaginas, and it's okay for women to be attracted to nerds or jocks, or anyone else they want.

We are all allowed to be attracted to whomever we're attracted to, and you are not entitled to a woman's time, affection, or attraction.

That's why so many women cringe when they hear phrases like "friend zoned" and "nice guy."

Remember: no woman ever dates a man because he's "nice." Nice is the most basic criterion. If you're not nice and other things... then you're just nice. And that's, like, super boring.

If you feel like you don't have much to offer, other than being nice, check out some of the advice I shared in You'd Get Invited to More Parties if You'd Mingle, Instead of Cling.

And, again, remember: you are not entitled to a woman's time, affection, or attraction.

3. A decent rule of thumb is, "If you're not SURE the answer is yes, don't ask her out."

In July 2017, Ashton Kutcher, an American actor and investor, was berated on Twitter for trying to start a conversation about rules for dating in the workplace.

Which is absolutely ridiculous. It's a perfectly valid question. If we don't discuss "clear red lines" and rules for dating at work, we spread ignorance and fear. Male and female employees may become afraid to interact with one another. Women may miss out on opportunities to discuss promotions and raises, because their bosses are afraid to have a closed-door meeting with them. Bosses may fear asking employees out for a drink to discuss a project, for fear this could be interpreted wrong.

And, of course, women (and men) could get hurt, by both malicious and well-meaning colleagues.

We should absolutely be discussing the rules for dating (and even friendships) at work.

I don't have a great, all-encompassing answer. But the advice I gave one friend recently when he wondered whether or not he should ask out a woman he works with was, "You should only ask if you know the answer is going to be yes."

How do you know the answer is going to be yes?

You spend time talking to each other at work. You feel a certain mutual energy -- not a one-way physical attraction. It's obvious to you that she likes you and would want to go on a date with you.

If you don't know she would say yes, you either need to practice developing your social skills or get over this girl. Because either you don't have the social savvy to stay out of trouble, or you're asking because of wishful thinking.

And she shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable and objectified by some creepy dude she doesn't even like just because you were too lazy or emotional to examine and correctly interpret the interactions.

4. Hot guys can be creepy, too.

It's not like being attractive gives you a free pass. Look what happened to Ashton Kutcher when he asked a sincere and important question about dating at work.

Undoubtedly, part of the reason women seem not to find hot guys as creepy is your own motivated reasoning. Your mind clings to examples that confirm your existing views. It selectively forgets or overjustifies examples that don't. Even the world's best thinkers are prone to cognitive biases.

And, yes, part of the reason women don't seem to find hot guys creepy is the whole, "If there's a mutual attraction, it's not creepy," thing.

But another part of the reason may be that attractive men simply have more experience talking to and flirting with women. Communication is hard and messy, and the only way to get good at it is through practice.

If you spend a lot of time watching porn and playing video games, you're not going to be as good at flirting or communicating as someone who goes out to bars, joins co-ed sports leagues, spends time pursuing hobbies, and makes plans to meet up with friends.

THAT SAID. Hot guys can be creepy, too. I've met my share, and no amount of physical attractiveness makes it acceptable to harass women.

***

So, long story short, yes. If you're physically unattractive, you may have to approach flirting a little differently from those despised "hot guys."

But one thing you can do right now, that will instantly make you more manly and attractive, is think about what behaviors of yours might be problematic... and how you cn correct them.

Because, to me, one of the major differences between a man and a boy (and, for that matter, a woman and a little girl), is that a man takes accountability and doesn't blame his faults on other people.

41 Comments

Steve H

9/1/2018 02:14:41 pm

"If you're not SURE the answer is yes, don't ask her out."

This is unfair. It's unfair to imply that a guy asking in a situation where the answer may be a no is creepy. It's unfair to imply that a guy can always know. This is just plain unfair, and silly.

Daniel

9/1/2018 03:46:41 pm

Isn’t that just about the work place (3)? Obviously like at a bar you might not know if she’s interested or not and that’s ok. But if you ask someone out in the workplace and she says no that gets super uncomfortable for everyone. I had a friend who did that and it ended up super awkward.

cat observer

12/3/2018 09:13:38 pm

You brushed over a few important things. Those women in the tweets where complaining about ugly men hitting on them. not ugly men who refused to take no for an answer. I agree that if a woman is not reciprocating flirting you should back off but those women seemed to think that even one attempt at flirting is sexual harassment.

If you ask a woman out and she says no, you accept the no, but then she still files the complaint to HR then she is a bad person.

You are entitled to say no, you are not entitled not to be asked out.

Also quite frankly if an ugly woman flirts with a man above her league the man usually politely turns her down. He does not insult her or try to ruin her career. Women on the other hand seem to hate guys they are not attracted too.

I do agree that it's better to go through life hot than ugly. I personally advise every guy I meet to maximize how attractive they are. It makes life much better.

Eva Glasrud link

12/6/2018 11:04:59 am

I do believe I addressed this in my post. That's kind of what I meant when I said,

> Flirting is fun. But only when advances are thrilling, meaningful, or desired. Flirting, like kissing, sex, and... I dunno, tandem skydiving?... is only fun when both people are into it.

> Unwanted sexual advances are gross.

> I'm not going to sugarcoat things, because that's a waste of everyone's time: if you're attractive, your advances are more likely to be mutual. If you're unattractive, your advances are less likely to be mutual.

In other words, the reason women complain about ugly guys hitting on them is because it isn't mutual.

That's also why I suggested unattractive guys take a different approach. Instead of instantly hitting on a girl, show her how witty, smart, and awesome you are. Get her interested in something other than your looks, THEN ask her out.

I totally agree with your last point, too: in general, in a social situation, it's okay to ask someone out ONCE. In general, in a dating situation, it's okay to ask someone if you can (do/receive sexual thing) ONCE. If the answer is no, that's it.

However, when we're talking about a workplace situation, it's a little different. People go to bars to socialize and have fun. People go to work to build their careers and make a living. Women have a right to go to work and not get hit on. Obviously, some of the best relationships start at work...

But, in those cases, I'm pretty sure #3 -- don't ask unless you KNOW the answer is yes -- would apply. There's a huge difference between asking out a coworker because you think she's attractive, but you aren't sure if she's interested... and formalizing something that is already happening, anyway.

I'm not sure if all hot guys are kind when turning down women. Obviously, everyone should be kind when possible. But it's also true that guys -- even hot ones -- get hit on WAY less than women. Most dudes can remember every time they've been asked out because it happens so rarely. It doesn't excuse unnecessary rudeness, but it does add context.

12/3/2018 09:45:04 pm

Another problem with your post.

"And she shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable and objectified by some creepy dude she doesn't even like just because you were too lazy or emotional to examine and correctly interpret the interactions."

The whole concept of objectification is bullshit. It's just something women say because saying that they find a man ugly makes them look shallow. So they come up with a vague word like objectify and say that the man is a bad person because he objectifies women, whatever that means.

Also men are worse at reading subtle social cues than women. The woman could just say outright "I am not interested." Us men have to make many accommodations when working with women. Maybe women can make the accommodation of taking the time to explain to men the concept of subtle hints so that they get it.

Lastly the whole tone of your quote is kind of fucked up. Do you ever think that the man may feel uncomfortable when he is attacked as a bad person for expressing his sexuality? After all if he only asked a girl out and gracefully accepted her rejection he deserves to be treated with respect. Women are not entitled to only be asked out by hawt guys. Calling a guy creepy, which implies he is a rapist or a pedo, when he only asked you out once is a form of social bullying.

12/6/2018 11:11:35 am

People who sit on the couch all day are worse runners than people who exercise every day. Humans are great at understanding emotions and context -- but it is a skill that can take more practice for some people than others. Just like running. That doesn't mean you have to sit on the couch all day.

In fact, research by Klein and Hodges (2001) found that, contrary to the stereotype that women are more emotionally aware than men, gender differences disappear when you pay men to be empathic.

If you truly think that "objectification" isn't a real thing, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. It's basically like trying to convince someone water is wet. If you don't believe something that's so obviously true, nothing I say will change your mind, so let's agree to disagree.

And, again, it's not "creepy" that someone asked you out. It's usually how, when, or why he did it.

5/11/2019 09:47:07 am

My main point is that women, especially left leaning women, get very angry when an unattractive man shows interest. Then SOME of these women will use the privilege society grants them to attack the man as a creepy pervert. In other words these women will attempt to ostracize the man from society because he is unattractive. As an excuse for not finding this man attractive and to justify ostracism they say there is something wrong with how the man acted, when a more attractive man who did the same thing would not have a problem. This is a form of social bullying.

The tweet you posted at the start of this article from Linda who said she would report an ugly man who flirts with her to HR is a prime example of this.

Just like we as a society call out shitty men we have to call out shitty women. Currently we live in a society where women are encouraged to be as shitty as possible while men are policed for even the most minor infractions. It would be immoral for society to force women to date unattractive men, but it should absolutely force them to treat said men like human beings.

If you truly think that "objectification" isn't a real thing, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. It's basically like trying to convince someone water is wet. If you don't believe something that's so obviously true, nothing I say will change your mind, so let's agree to disagree.
--Eva

Humans find other humans attractive. When gay men find other men attractive no one cares. When Buzzfeed writes articles about the hottest guys in Game of Thrones no one cares. When men express interest in women they are attacked for objectifying women. The reason you can't convince me that objectification is real is because objectification is a vague word used to attack men who show sexual interest in women. Straight men lusting after women, which is perfectly natural, pisses off feminists and leftists so they make up a word to attack said men. But this word is never used to attack women who for example lust after male bodies without considering the human being said body is attached to.

A man finding a women attractive does not preclude him from seeing the women as human being. In fact people lust after human beings, not objects so the concept of objectification is pretty stupid.

Doubter

6/28/2019 06:18:45 pm

I do realize that grossly inappropriate advances and sexual harassment from men toward women is a huge problem that is way too prevalent across the world. Too many men do have an issue with sexual entitlement and lack of respect. Because of this, the #MeToo movement is very important and necessary. So, the point that I am about to make is not intended to dismiss that real issue.

However...

I think that, rather than actually do some real introspection and critical investigation, you instead brushed off the fundamental topic of your post too easily.

What people are trying to (correctly) point out is that the EXACT SAME behavior will sometimes be interpreted differently depending on the attractiveness of the male suitor. Which, in the post-MeToo era, means that whether or not a man is called out as "creepy" or a "sexual harasser" will sometimes be a result of his attractiveness level rather than his behavior actually being worse than others. That could easily result in serious career/legal consequences for some men simply for doing the same things that hot guys get away with.

I encourage you to consider Hollywood romance films as an example:

American Beauty -- Despite videotaping her entire family and writing her name in fire on her lawn, Ricky still gets the girl.

Twilight -- Edward is a deadly vampire who sneaks into a teenage girl's bedroom at night to watch her sleep and stalks her around town.

The Notebook -- After repeatedly being rejected, Noah threatened to kill himself if Allie didn't go out with him. Later, he not only wrote his ex a letter every day for a year, but then bought and restored the house she loved to win her back.

Yet, these characters are usualy loved by women for being super romantic and "I wish he'd do that to me!" sentiments. Now, imagine an ugly awkward guy doing these things. Everyone would scream harassment.

Also, consider this experiment: someone made a fake Tinder account using the picture of a super attractive male model and chatted with women. He said: "I can literally say ANYTHING and still get their [phone] #". He provides screenshots where his conversation starter is things like "I want to cum all over your beautiful face" and "I'd like to suck your breasts", and he overwhelmingly gets positive responses and women providing their phone numbers.

https://www.boredpanda.com/social-experiment-guy-created-fake-tinder-profile-hot-model-pictures-germanlifter/

I'm not here to say what is appropriate or inappropriate courting behaviors, and I certainly am not shaming anyone for being overtly sexual. I'm here merely to point out the hypocrisy many people such as yourself are refusing to acknowledge: that YES, a big difference between what is considered creepy and inappropriate comes down to attractiveness. Of course, there are other factors too, but it is intellectually dishonest to deny this.

9/19/2019 01:39:21 pm

I agree so much about the ridiculousness of Hollywood. I would even add one to the list: I just watched Tall Girl (how could I not? I'm a tall girl!) and it bugged the crap out of me that this creepy little pervert, who harassed his "friend" by asking her out every single day at school, tried to sabotage her relationships with other guys, and SNUCK INTO HER ROOM AND TOUCHED HER WHILE SHE WAS SLEEPING...

Still got the girl in the end.

This little fucker is clearly a creep. And yet, and yet. (See also: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/netflixs-tall-girl-is-creepy-predictable-and-clearly-written-by-someone-who-is-not-a-tall-girl)

In my previous comment to you, I mentioned that it's important for men not to be creeps (in the objective sense: not continuing to ask er out after she's said no, not making inappropriate comments about her body, not stalking her, etc; in the subjective sense: trying to pay attention to her cues to make sure she's interested and enjoying the conversation and you're not just imposing, especially if you've interrupted her to initiate the conversation). It's also important for women to be able to use their words to communicate. Men aren't perfect mind readers. If he's not picking up on your cues, just TELL him, "I need to get back to work." "Please excuse me."

I agree that #MeToo is really important. I agree that it can arbitrarily punish dudes who had no idea they'd done something wrong. There's room for improvement on both sides.

I still think that in most cases, "creepy" comes down to reciprocity, but I agree that some women (and some men) can be harsh, unfair, and superficial.

I couldn't possibly comment on that Tinder experiment, because girls who respond positively to disgusting messages like that are so far beyond relatable to me that their responses literally made me gag. I mean, I guess it makes sense that someone who would respond to "hey babe wanna bang" with "sure you're hot" is someone who ONLY cares about looks, and not intelligence, respect, or life choices. So, yeah, if your goal is to "cum on girls' faces" and have them "sit on your face so you can eat your way to their heart," you're not going to have as much luck with that if you're unattractive, I guess? Again... I really just am so far from being able to relate to that, I'm not sure what to say. People are allowed to do what they want sexually. I'm allowed to think it's gross and sad and depraved.

Xavier

7/13/2019 11:53:40 am

Legally speaking you cannot have different sets of rules for ugly men and attractive men.

If it is okay for Chad to say "Hey Linda, love that dress, it fits you so nice!" but it is sexual harassment for an ugly guy to say it, you have created a human rights violation.

Laws and regulations must apply to ACTIONS, not FEELINGS, because no one can objectively regulate feelings or apply fair rules to everyone based on feelings.

Try to think clearly and you will realize your post just gave a 100% endorsement of everything incel and MGTOW men say is wrong with women today and the entire #METOO movement.

7/16/2019 09:39:39 am

The rule is the same no matter who you are: flirting is only okay when it's reciprocal.

"It fits you so nice" would be creepy in a workplace situation no matter who said it.

Carl

8/3/2019 10:53:48 am

Yep. Sad but true. Women want the double standard that Chad get's to hit on them but an unattractive guy does not.

And yes you can do everything right, from a social standpoint, and just because you are unattractive you can be called creepy, or reported to HR, or to the police. Sometimes you don't even have to approach women.

This is a social problem that needs to be fixed but the lesson here, the main lesson is don't be unattractive. Work out and eat right and try to be as attractive as possible. It's not fair but that's the way it is. One day it will change but until that day adjust.

The world is just that cruel.

8/3/2019 11:07:38 am

Honey, if people are calling you creepy, you haven't done it right.

Reciprocity is key. It definitely helps to be attractive, so, yeah, going to the gym will help. But so will, you know, getting to know women and treating them like people before you start hitting on them. You want them to look past your appearance? Maybe you should do the same.

8/3/2019 12:27:38 pm

Honey, if people are calling you creepy, you haven't done it right.
--Eva

No need to get snarky Eva.

A man in a coffee shop asks a girl about her book; she tells him to mind his own business then complains to her friends about the creep at the coffee shop. Or a man asks a female coworker out to lunch, as a collogue with no sexual intent. She reports him to HR anyway and gets him fired. Did these men do anything wrong? No. But things like this have happened and they are unfair.

Reciprocity is key. It definitely helps to be attractive, so, yeah, going to the gym will help. But so will, you know, getting to know women and treating them like people before you start hitting on them.
--Eva

Sigh. So many bad takes in so few worlds. First hitting on women does not mean you are not treating them like people. Second I don't want people to look past appearances. I want people to be polite. Women have the power to destroy men's lives with false accusations and gossip. Is it too much to ask that they use this power responsibly? You understand that? I don't want women to date ugly men.

Now here is some radical shit that I'm about to drop: Affluent liberal white women like you Eva are not victims; they are the most privileged class in American society. So I suggest you check your privilege before commenting on male issues in the future.

Anonymous

9/16/2019 10:44:17 am

Eva,

"You want them to look past your appearance? Maybe you should do the same."

Is this a suggestion/criticism directed at both sexes, or a jab at men, because that is the tone of your post and replies.

Women have complained to me that they are perpetually date/sexless because they can't find guys that will date them, and in the next breath say that the only men that are interested in them are older, overweight, short, ugly, balding, etc., despite the fact that they themselves are not very easy on the eyes either.

I don't think you are being objective in your evaluation of the "creep" stigma, because you neglect to acknowledge the social privilege that females enjoy in terms of initiation and escalation. Women are exempt from the expectation to approach men for dates /relationships. They can simply wait for one who is acceptable to approach them. If one approaches who is not acceptable, she also has the privilege of creep shaming him and backbiting him about how "creepy" he is.

In reality, though, this is nothing more than a pure case of her thinking "How dare this unattractive loser approach me and try to get to know me...doesn't he know that I am on a higher caste level than he is...how insulting!"

Men, on the other hand, cannot simply wait it out or guess that a woman will receive his attempt to get to know her, however graciously, without reprisal.

Eva link

9/18/2019 07:05:49 am

The statement, "You want them to look past your appearance? Maybe you should do the same," is completely gender neutral. This article just happens to be for and about men. But I agree with you. With the exception of "older" ("older" isn't the same as balding, short, etc., because, while people love to say older women have less good eggs, older men also have less healthy sperm, plus there are plenty of other considerations - do you really want your husband to be 80 when you're 60, etc.), it makes sense to not be a shallow jerk. (It's just science. People typically end up with people who are like them. Unless there's a confounding factor, 7s end up with 7s, 3s with 3s, etc. )

That said... if all you know about someone is what they look like, what are you supposed to judge them by? That's why I suggest to men who aren't "conventionally attractive" that they get to know and appreciate someone as a real person before hitting on them.

"Women are exempt from the expectation to approach men for dates /relationships. They can simply wait for one who is acceptable to approach them."

Correction: *ATTRACTIVE* women have this privilege. (Unattractive women usually just feel invisible.) And it's really not a "privilege" to constantly be hit on when you're just trying to get a workout in, watch your friends sing karaoke, listen to music while taking a walk, read a book at a cafe, etc. etc. etc. It's annoying and disruptive!

No one's forcing men to approach such women -- and, again, reciprocity matters. Chances are, if a girl is engrossed in her book, she doesn't want to talk to you. If you happen to have read the same book recently and have something profound to say about it... MAYBE. If you happen to be super physically attractive, maybe. If you are the author of that book... probably. But if you literally have nothing to add, you just want to interrupt her because she's pretty... probably not. Not sure? You still need to have the decency to bug off if she seems uninterested. She doesn't OWE you a conversation just because you interrupted what she's doing, and the attitude that she should is just... creepy.

Similarly, she has every right to call him terrible things -- to his face and behind his back -- if she's clearly uninterested and he doesn't leave her alone. Because that IS another definition of creep.

Of course, my advice to such women would be: creepy and clueless dudes are going to impose on you constantly if you don't learn how to say things like, "Excuse me, I'm right in the middle of something," or, "Cool! Have a nice afternoon," or, "STOP TOUCHING ME," -- or even just shake their heads no without even bothering to take out their headphones. It feels "rude" to assert your boundaries, so a lot of women won't do it. But I would rather have to be rude sometimes than never get to read a book in public again.

9/19/2019 01:54:33 pm

A man on a construction site yells obscene things to a 12-year-old girl on her way to school. A man takes creepy photos of a woman who is sunbathing in her yard.

Does this mean I'm going to generalize such behaviors to all men and feel constantly targeted and oppressed and never give anyone the benefit of a doubt?

No. Even though things like this happen all the time and they are extremely unfair.

Some men are creeps. Some women are superficial. Still, I find it extremely hard to believe that MOST women are going to find men who haven't done anything creepy to be creepy.

> "First hitting on women does not mean you are not treating them like people."

If you literally know nothing about me except what I look like and you ask me out on a date... in what way is that treating me like a person?

> "Second I don't want people to look past appearances. I want people to be polite."

In an ideal world, politeness is better than rudeness. But as I've already mentioned to someone else, just because you had the balls to interrupt me, doesn't mean I OWE you a certain amount of my time, energy, or courtesy.

Sometimes, I have the time and energy to give you a moment of my time -- and if that goes well, perhaps I'll give you another moment. Or my number.

Other times, I'm up against a tight deadline, I'm running late for a meeting, I really want to get to the gym so I can get on the basketball team I want, or I'm just not in the mood -- in such cases, I'll shake my head no and point in the other direction, without even bothering to take my headphones out of my ears.

All else equal, politeness and compassion is better than rudeness. But I don't owe you shit just because you think I'm pretty.

> "Women have the power to destroy men's lives with false accusations and gossip. Is it too much to ask that they use this power responsibly?"

False accusations and gossip are not the same thing. The one is illegal, and shitty, and something I have discussed at length in other posts. The other... I think gossip is great. If I literally had to SCREAM at you to get you to stop trying to kiss me (see also: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/last-night-i-screamed-no-in-a-guys-face-because-he-wouldnt-stop-trying-to-kiss-me-would-you-do-that), of COURSE I'm going to warn all my female friends about you.

Or, as I wrote way back in the day, gossip isn't petty. It's a powerful evolutionary tool. (http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/gossip-isnt-petty-its-a-powerful-evolutionary-tool)

And don't forget: men also have the power to destroy lives.

> "You understand that? I don't want women to date ugly men."

Err... I'm afraid I don't understand.

> "Affluent liberal white women like you Eva are not victims; they are the most privileged class in American society. So I suggest you check your privilege before commenting on male issues in the future."

Thanks for the laugh! :P

9/18/2019 02:52:41 pm

"...it makes sense not to be a shallow jerk."

"If you happen to be super physically attractive, maybe."

Take a few minutes to juxtapose these two statements you made.
Can you see the contradiction, irony, and hypocrisy oozing from them?

9/18/2019 03:35:44 pm

No, not at all. When you copy-paste random quotes without context, you can make anything sound like anything. Or, as Shakespeare might have said, "The devil can cite scripture for his purpose."

I'm very upfront about the fact that, if you're attractive, flirting is more likely to be reciprocated, and therefore, not creepy. Not reciprocated = creepy.

To further clarify:

"If you happen to be super physically attractive, maybe," is about interrupting a hypothetical woman who is reading, and what might hypothetically cross her mind. I'm not talking about a woman who is considering what she wants in a boyfriend, or who is considering who is worth talking to. I am talking about a woman who is by herself, reading a book, and is interrupted by a man she does not know.

"It makes sense not to be a shallow jerk" refers to a hypothetical man or woman who is actively making decisions about whom to date.

A woman reading a book is a woman reading a book, not a contestant on The Bachelor. She doesn't OWE you her time or consideration, just because you interrupted her. People have lives beyond their reproductive decisions.

Does that make sense?

9/18/2019 04:38:54 pm

Hi Eva,

I know that many people here are are trying to shoot you down somewhat unfairly because they are perhaps angry or bitter. As I said in my last comment, MeToo is real and rampant inappropriate harassment needs to be seriously addressed. And, I disagree with many of the things some commenters have said, or at least have some reservations.

For example, I think the following statement by Anonymous is waaaay overblown:

"How dare this unattractive loser approach me and try to get to know me...doesn't he know that I am on a higher caste level than he is...how insulting!"

While some people (both males and females) are that egotistical, the majority of rejection is of course not like that. It's very common for women to feel guilty turning men down rather than thinking it's "beneath them".

HOWEVER ... having said all that ...

I do agree with this statement they also made:

"I don't think you are being objective in your evaluation of the 'creep' stigma"

The fundamental point that you seem to be continually dancing around rather than really addressing head on is what I said in my last comment that you never responded to: "the EXACT SAME behavior will sometimes be interpreted differently depending on the attractiveness of the male suitor". I'm not talking about a man continuing to try to flirt with a woman despite her clear lack of interest. I'm talking about the initial attempt before she has even had a chance to respond. Women will oftentimes unfairly denigrate some men with the term "creepy" with carries such a nasty social stigma, when in fact that label is totally unwarranted.

You have said that an attractive man is more likely to get a positive response to flirting than an unattractive man, which of course makes sense. But, that is a separate issue, and you don't seem to be understanding the fact that it is a separate issue. That issue only comes into play if the man then continues flirting after receiving a negative response.

The distinction here is that what I am talking about is the initial male approach BEFORE the woman responds. The exact same behavior undertaken by two people shouldn't be creepy just because one is unattractive.

For example, if a random good-looking woman comes up to me and offers me a flower and a wink and asks how my day is going, I might be flattered and want to get to know her romantically. If a hunch-backed woman with bald spots, missing teeth, and warts offers me a flower and stutteringly asks how my day is going, I probably won't be interested in reciprocating, but I wouldn't call her "creepy". That is just unfair. Her action in itself is not creepy.

Now, if either of the women keep stalking me along my daily commute and trying to woo me for weeks, I might get creeped out. You see, it's the nature of the action itself, not the appearance of the woman, that determines the creepiness. The appearance may determine my interest level, but the creepiness comes from the inappropriate actions not the appearance.

Perhaps if you put yourself in their shoes and imagine yourself or your loved one being labeled as "creepy" by a group of other people largely because you don't fit conventional attractiveness standards. I think if the shoe were on the other foot then you would be much more hesitant to throw that word around. What if the only opportunity you ever had to get a boyfriend/girlfriend or find any physical affection at all were for you to always make the first move, and then you got labeled as "creepy" because you aren't Don Juan the Smooth-Talker but instead are a little awkward and shy and inexperienced and not attractive. How would you feel about the term creepy in that scenario? What if they said to you, "if you go to the gym and get a makeover then maybe we'll be less likely to think you're creepy"? How would you feel?

Seriously, you need to honestly try to imagine being in this situation. Don't just blow it off. The world is full of people who are unable/unwilling to ever truly put themselves in someone else's shoes. I'm asking you to do so with this thought experiment.

Do you see what I am saying? Please let me know.

Also, I would really be interested if you'd reply to my original comment (the only other comment by the author "Doubter"). You're not required to, obviously, but you do seem to be replying pretty consistently to other people's comments, so it would be nice.
Thank you for reading this.

9/18/2019 08:32:21 pm

I don't think they were "random quotes without context." On the contrary. The brevity and abruptness of these two statements gives all the context I need to explain my point. However, you, for whatever reason, are not willing to acknowledge how these two statements negate other arguments you're trying to make.

Let's unpack these quotes, and maybe you'll see what I am getting at. First...

"It makes sense NOT to be a SHALLOW JERK."

Now, to whom did you direct that statement towards? Not "super physically attractive" people, because to you they are of a higher human value compared to "unattractive" people, seeing as you grant them immunity from being castigated for having physical preferences and making cold approaches to attractive strangers in public, as evidenced by your second quote.

If the definition of "shallow" can be interpreted as having a sexual/romantic interest based mostly on appearance, then this standard should apply equally to ALL individuals, no matter where they place on your arbitrary attractiveness spectrum. If an "attractive" person cold approaches another in public because said person happens to find that person physically attractive, then he/she is just as much a "shallow jerk" as an "unattractive" person for having done so for said reasons. Just because someone is attractive does not exempt them from the "shallow jerk" standard you are so quick to slap on "unattractive" people.

Second...

"If you happen to be super physically attractive, maybe."

This is absolutely vomit inducing. You've effectively negated the crux or your criticism towards "creepy" men that they should leave women in public alone just because they are not attractive, and assigning the action of cold approaching women in public as "creepy" solely on unattractive men since you don't think they are worthy of approaching women and you don't approve of their appearance. You give attractive men preferential treatment over unattractive men, which severely weakens, if not totally invalidates your "creepy" premise of men approaching women, even if they do walk away after being told an affirmative "no" or reading the subtle signs of disinterest.

Admit it, you just don't want to be approached by ugly men, period. You don't think such men are worthy of intermingling with women you think are of a higher aesthetic value than them. And if that is your attitude, then you are in no condition to critisize ANYONE of being a "shallow jerk."

What is even more infuriating is that you shame men for being socially awkward, insecure, unconfident, and afraid to approach women and pursue relationships. Well, when women like you say things like what you've said, can you blame them? You're not helping these men overcome their insecurities and social problems when you write articles like this, especially when you label them as "creepy" and attribute their creepiness to their physical appearance.

You are absolutely idiotic in your rhetoric when you purport to help men with their lack of self-worth by engaging in derogatory language that achieves the adverse effect. You can't have it both ways.

Does THAT make sense?

I'm not a psych major, and I did not attend an Ivy League university, but I think the concept of coginitive dissonance is not lost on you.

9/19/2019 01:50:08 am

Dear Anonymous (and Eva -- see below),

I feel that you should moderate your language to be a bit more respectful. By berating Eva and demeaning her intelligence, she is less likely to take your words seriously and more likely to see you as just an angry bully. Plus, if you read all her replies on this page, she remains consistently respectful and actually takes the time (sometimes) to write out measured thoughtful responses.

We want to engage her in a dialogue that might allow her to open up to a new perspective. It is NOT productive nor even accurate to claim her ideas are "idiotic". She obviously is a very intelligent person and has shown she is quite capable of considering multiple perspectives. There's no use throwing angry rhetoric at someone over the internet.

She is simply overlooking a crucial element that I think she might well be able to see if she lowers her defensiveness and is willing to open up a little bit and engage her curiosity and ask questions. But, somehow I don't think she's likely to do that if people keep throwing tomatoes at her and treating her like an enemy.

For what it's worth, I think she doesn't disagree with you as much as you think she does. She has said these two things: 1) "in general, in a social situation, it's okay to ask someone out ONCE." and 2) "Obviously like at a bar you might not know if she’s interested or not and that’s ok."

I think in her mind she's kind of conflating A) irritation with being approached by too many random men with B) inappropriately elaborate/repetitive unwanted advances by one person. Point A is annoying but not really "creepy", whereas point B can legitimately be more creepy sometimes. I'm guessing that, because she is confusing these two distinct things, she is calling point A creepy sometimes without realizing her mistake of confusing A with B.

Eva, what are your thoughts on the distinction between A and B above? Can you clarify your evaluation of each of them for us? Do you think they are both equally creepy, and if so then why?

Thank you.

9/19/2019 10:41:10 am

I don't want her to have the "I'm taking my ball and going home, I don't wanna play anymore" reaction to my comments, so for the sake of her participation in this important discussion, I'll try my level best to turn down the temperature. But I'm not going to turn it down so much that she is not held accountable for her shaming language and perpetuance of double standards against men. When she makes hot-button statements about hot-button social issues, she should expect her haughty, sanctimonious assertions to be responded to in kind. To you, her language may be "consistently respectful." To me, her "consitently repsectful" language is patronizing and sanctimonious, carefully worded to feign politeness. It does not give her an excuse not to justify and defend her statments. The strength of steel is measured by its ability to withstand the most intense heat.

I'm also not going to put up some facade of gallantry when speaking to her just because she is a woman after she has voluntarilty body shamed people and reduced them to some number on a socially-constructed scale, that would make me a sexist. I treat all people who make offensive statements equally, even if that means pointing out their idiocy after they have done so.

Do what you will, but I will challenge women's arguments and attitudes, and hold them accountable in the manner that I see fit. If she truly is a strong, intelligent woman, then she should certainly be able to meet that challenge.

9/19/2019 01:06:56 pm

Doubter,

I don't think I'm conflating those two things, as they're very different. I do think there are an endless number of social situations in which someone might ask someone out, and it's hard to write a comment that is equally relevant to them all.

Of course, there are times when A) some women at some times are irritated about being interrupted/asked out by too many men. Maybe if you were the first man to interrupt her that day, she would have politely turned you down. Maybe if you were the 20th but she wasn't in a hurry, she would still have been polite. Or maybe you were the first but she was running late, so she was curt, or maybe you were the 20th, and she'd lost all patience.

The fundamental attribution error (our tendency to attribute our own behavior to our situation, but other people's behavior to their disposition) is fun, isn't it?

As you noted, I do think it's okay to approach people (in appropriate situations -- never at work!) to gauge their interest in you. But it's tremendously important not to turn into the person you described in B. Person A isn't inherently creepy, but can easily become person B if he's not attentive and respectful.

But in the case of man A, I don't think women owe men any amount of time or attention, just because he had the balls to interrupt her, which is why I think it's important for women to get comfortable asserting their boundaries and just telling guys, "Sorry, I really want to finish this chapter," instead of letting him cluelessly usurp your time, then complain later that he was a creep. Guys shouldn't be creeps. Girls shouldn't let creeps (intentional or otherwise) impose on them.

I try to be very direct in both situations A and B. Maybe you've done nothing wrong, but I don't want to talk to you, so I say so. Maybe I've said no and you won't leave me alone, so I've raised my voice at you and called you names, because you didn't listen to me when I asked you quietly and politely to leave me alone.

And ultimately, I think it's better for the guy that way. If he's doing something women find creepy, isn't it better to get real, honest feedback (not that I OWE him that) instead of ambiguous and misleading politeness?

You've asked for an objective understanding of creepy. That's also a hard question, because while certain things ARE objectively creepy (touching someone who is sleeping, following someone around, asking someone out after they've already told you no)... other things are subjective. I personally don't find men approaching me in a bar to be creepy. Some women do. Why? I don't know. Same reason I don't understand why they feel the need to stuff keys between their fingers because they think someone's going to attack them on their walk home from work.

Many measures of creepy ARE subjective. I think when men try to draw a parallel where they are approached by women, they miss out on the whole (I HATE saying this, because it's overused in social justice circles to the point that it's a meaningless catch-all) "power dynamic." Chances are a woman who approaches you on your commute, whether hot or warty, isn't physically capable of overpowering you. Chances are 100 women who look just like her haven't heckled and cat called you on your way to work. It's not really a perfect model.

By making the second woman hideously unattractive, I guess you highlight some amount of unfairness. If I know nothing about you except that you are missing teeth and covered in warts... I mean, disgust is a really important and powerful evolutionary emotion. It would make life really hard for people with obvious physical issues, because we are designed to be repulsed by things that could be contagious and we are designed not to be attracted to people who seem to be unhealthy, have bad genes, or might not be fertile.

But, to me, that's a pretty extreme example, beyond your run-of-the-mill, below average attractiveness.

Adding to the potential perception of creepiness is that it IS strange that someone who was so very clearly "not in my league" would approach me, because it almost kind of implies a disregard for reciprocity or consent? It feels cruel to say -- and I wouldn't say it about someone who was simply a 3, but was extremely intelligent and talented and shared other traits and values with me.

And I don't know what a good solution to that is, beyond the advice I've already given of getting to know someone before making romantic gestures, because if you're old and bald and warty and toothless and you hand me a rose, literally all I know about you is that you're old et al. If we met through a meet-up or a mutual friend or a trivia team and I was consistently surprised by your knowledge... it shows me we have something in common.

9/19/2019 01:23:50 pm

Doubter (cont),

It's a big topic that's impossible to address in one blog post or comment, especially considering the parts of "creep" that are subjective.

For the things beyond someone's control -- I do imagine what it's like. When I was thinking about the warty toothless person in your hypothetical, I actually felt sick in my stomach for the pain and isolation that person would feel. I feel a tremendous amount of sympathy for people who can't escape their looks.

But I also know that people don't just pick partners based on appearance. That's why, when you say things like,

"Every opportunity you ever had to get a boyfriend/girlfriend or find any physical affection at all were for you to always make the first move, and then you got labeled as "creepy" because you aren't Don Juan the Smooth-Talker but instead are a little awkward and shy and inexperienced and not attractive,"

I just find it hard to... relate? I don't mind awkward (as long as it means you act a little goofy, not that you think it's okay to touch me when I don't even know you or make inappropriate comments about my body). I don't mind shy (as long as you're still capable of having a conversation with me and I can get to know you). I like inexperienced. And, again, attractiveness... really isn't that big a deal to me.

I don't mind someone making the first move, as long as he clearly cares about reciprocity and consent. I wouldn't label someone creepy for that. I can't speak for every single woman on the planet. But I can say that, for every woman I've talked to on the subject, "creepy" is used to describe men who don't seem to care about reciprocity.

As I've acknowledged, attractive guys are more likely to have their flirting reciprocated. That sucks, it's a hard problem, and it makes me feel terrible for well-meaning guys who just can't get a break. That's why I wrote a thing to remind them, there ARE ways to meet women other than hitting on random women at bars and cafes, and that might be a better strategy.

Does... that answer your question?

9/19/2019 09:08:41 pm

Thanks for your responses. They are appreciated. Your last comment has no "Reply" button, so I'm starting a new thread.

As you rightly said, it is admittedly too big of a topic to really fit into these comments.

You did answer most of my questions, but not all. You didn't really answer this one:
> "What if they said to you, "if you go to the gym and get a makeover then maybe we'll be less likely to think you're creepy"? How would you feel?"

You say you can't relate, but I'm confident you can use your imagination here. Really, no one in your entire life has ever said anything negative about your looks or something awkward about you? Surely you can imagine someone saying my sample words to you on top of already having some insecurities.

I agree that creepiness is subjective. But that subjectivity doesn't mean it can just be applied liberally without proper reflection. Racism can also be subjective, but you certainly wouldn't want people liberally throwing that word in your direction would you? Think about all the times you said or did something insensitive or that was misinterpreted by a person of color as being worse than you actually meant it ... and probably you never even realized they were hurt by it because they never told you!!! What if they told people in your extended social circles that you were kind of racist? You'd be fine with that, right? To use your words, you "find it extremely hard to believe that" someone who thinks another person is creepy/racist isn't usually accurate.

> "I find it extremely hard to believe that MOST women are going to find men who haven't done anything creepy to be creepy."

I think the reason you think this way is because you don't have the experience of being a man. It's not as black and white as you imagine. I myself have been told "stop being so creepy" before by a woman in my a cappella group long ago, and it was extremely hurtful to me because it was so inaccurate and out of nowhere, and it was in front of others. I had never hit on her nor was I even interested in her. I believe that she actually had been interested in me previously, although I can't say that for sure. At this point I think she had moved on, but maybe she was slightly resentful because she thought I had rejected her previously? I don't know. But I can swear to you that I absolutely was not doing anything "creepy" with her or anyone in the group, although I was a bit more socially awkward in general back then. Her accusation was unfair.

You seem to be assuming that the world has few valid perspectives outside your own, and therefore men must all be mistaken when they say "creepy" is unfairly used sometimes. If you could only walk in someone else's shoes you would surely change your mind.

There is an awesome mini documentary about a woman who decides to pretend to be a man for over a year (buzz cut, bound breasts, male clothes, fake facial hair, etc.) and she passes: no one knows she's actually a woman. She has lots of fantastic revelations about the perceived differences between male and female behavior, and how much more empathy she gains. But, it's her experience trying to hit on other women (while pretending to be a man) that I want to share with you: the women are harsh and even mean in rejecting her attention, even if she's merely making gentle casual conversation. She later reveals to one of them that she is actually a woman and they talk for moment, and that woman softens enormously and even apologizes for being so cold to her. Her face goes from a scowl to a sheepish smile. It's incredible to watch. She hadn't said any pick up lines to this woman, just merely tried to engage her in light conversation.

My point here is that women are conditioned to often see men as "just another creep" when in fact it's often not the case. I understand that the onslaught of unwanted male attention as well as real creepiness causes this conditioning. But, we humans easily over-generalize. The butch woman in the documentary learned with her own eyes how much assumptions are made about the opposite gender on both sides.

> "I personally don't find men approaching me in a bar to be creepy. Some women do."

Ok, but if two recipients of the attention feel differently about it then which is right? They cannot both be correct. Is the man's action inappropriate or not?

> "isn't it better to get real, honest feedback (not that I OWE him that) instead of ambiguous and misleading politeness?"

I completely agree. Nowhere am I saying that men are owed responses. The only issue I'm focusing on is the use of the label "creepy".

> "Adding to the potential perception of creepiness is that it IS strange that someone who was so very clearly "not in my league" would approach me, because it almost kind of implies a disregard for reciprocity or consent? It feels cruel to say"

I think you have partially but not completely understood what I was getting at. In my view it is not accurate to say someone ap

9/19/2019 09:12:55 pm

My last comment was truncated apparently. This is the rest of it:

In my view it is not accurate to say someone approaching you is creepy because of their attractiveness NO MATTER how ugly they are. It does NOT necessarily imply a "disregard for reciprocity or consent". That is a bit of a stretch, especially to use the word "consent" in there. It would be awkward, it would be sad, and I might feel uncomfortable and guilty turning them down, but I would never call it "creepy". Creepy is a pejorative word that explicitly passes a kind of social/moral judgement onto someone ... Like the word "racist": it says something about that person themselves, not merely how we felt interacting with them.

And, just because it is an extreme example does not mean it's invalid. I chose that example precisely because it's extreme: that way we can really suss out the difference between uncomfortable and creepy. Your words seem to be treating uncomfortable as mostly equivalent to creepy. If the encounter makes you uncomfortable then it can be labeled as creepy. But obviously that is unfair and incorrect. If you approached me in a bar and your breath smelled wretched, I would be uncomfortable. Would my discomfort with this social interaction justify me calling you "creepy"? I'm seriously asking you: Does discomfort truly imply creepiness?

What about in the 1950's when black men interacted with white women? If the white women were uncomfortable with a "too-friendly" black man who gave her an "inappropriate" smile/grin, would she be correct in calling him creepy? Remember, black men were lynched for this, their eyes gouged out. If she was scared when a group of black men walked by, would they be "creepy"? If such a woman finds black men creepy, does her feeling that way actually make it true? No, obviously it does not. Feelings do not equal truth. White people used to feel like black people are dangerous. Just because a woman feels creeped out does not mean the other person is necessarily being creepy. And, remember, racism in social interactions continues even today. So does classism: e.g., sometimes a poor man in tatters might seem more creepy than rich guy in silk suit. Ableism: What about someone on the autism spectrum who means absolutely no harm but is socially inept?

Prejudices DO NOT justify the "creepy" label. It cannot be applied to whatever you feel like applying it to. Feelings do not always equal reality.

Does everything I said make sense? And, do you have any questions for me?

9/20/2019 03:05:38 pm

First, bleh. I hate it when comments get truncated. I wish I could make it so you at least get a warning before your text just gets lost forever.

Second, the reply button can be confusing, as some replies don't have them. I think usually if you click the Reply button higher up in the thread, it posts your new comment below the one you're replying to.

Not that it matters. New thread is fine.

>You did answer most of my questions, but not all. You didn't really answer this one:
>> "What if they said to you, "if you go to the gym and get a makeover then maybe we'll be less likely to think you're creepy"? How would you feel?"

I think that's a mischaracterization of what I said. What I said was, "Reciprocity is key. It definitely helps to be attractive, so, yeah, going to the gym will help." As in, if you look better (perhaps by wearing better clothes, perhaps by having more toned arms or being less overweight), people will be more likely to find you physically attractive, and therefore more likely to reciprocate your flirting.

This is true.

You took it a step further and claimed I said "if you go to the gym, people will find you less creepy." That's not what I said. Creepy is a behavior. Attractiveness is a trait. (Well, it's also a behavior, but you see what I mean.)

You can be unattractive and not creepy. You can be attractive and creepy. It's two different things, though they obviously affect each other.

No, people in my life haven't criticized my looks -- maybe my clothes, sometimes. Or, like, women would be shocked that I don't shave my legs. I never took it personally because it wasn't something I was insecure about. There's also a difference between giving general advice to a general audience (generally, fitter people are considered more physically attractive)... and telling someone, individually and personally and directly, "You're too fat. Go to the gym."

I think creepiness/racism is a strange comparison, because they're two different things. Generally, I find it pretty easy not to offend my non-white friends. If I want to ask something that is potentially sensitive, I'll preface it with, "We definitely don't have to talk about this if you don't want to," which, I guess, is ever so slightly comparable to asking someone before you touch them or something?

Similarly, I would pay enough attention to the people I was with that, should I accidentally say/do something that offended them, I'd notice their reaction and stop, and, again, ask if I was unsure. "Err... I feel like I just did something wrong, but I'm not sure what..."

If, even though I was reasonable and considerate, they STILL decided they don't like me, I think it's probably better that we part ways. I can't spend the rest of my life dancing on eggshells because someone is extremely hypersensitive. Or, like, if someone freaked out every time I said, "Hey, guys"... I feel like that's someone I don't really need in my life. Not everyone is compatible with everyone.

I can see why the a cappella thing was hurtful to you -- especially in such a public setting. It sounds like there was some subtext (feelings of rejection) that may have influenced her behavior, and since I don't know what you did to make her say that (and neither do you), it's hard to comment beyond, yes. I can see why that stung. Depending on my relationship with the person, I would have either stopped talking to them (because what's the point?), or asked them later, maybe privately (but not like followed her to her car privately), "I'm really sorry, and I'd like to understand what I did wrong so I can make sure I don't do it again."

I may not have the experience of being a man. But I have the experience of interacting with more than I can remember. I have the experience of feeling SO respected by someone who, even though we had THE most amazing time and talked the whole night and couldn't even SEE the other people in the room, didn't try to kiss me goodnight, because we'd only just met, and my body language was enough to tell him I wasn't ready to kiss him yet. I've had the experience of guys asking before they kissed me, then respecting my answer either way -- and I've had the experience of guys trying to "surprise" me with a gross sneak attack kiss, or whining some shit like, "Come onnnnn!" or, "I don't even get any cuddles?" when I tell them no. I've been shocked by how in-tune guys were with me; I've been shocked that they could have POSSIBLY thought there was a connection between us. I've seen all ranges of charismatic and socially awkward and inappropriate. So I think I'm plenty qualified to give advice on the topic.

9/20/2019 04:27:26 pm

(cont) I haven't seen that documentary, but I'm not surprised women were weird to that imposter-lady. I mean, everything about her was a lie, no? And, undoubtedly, despite wearing boy clothes, it's impossible for her to truly embody a man. Her whole thing was she was misrepresenting herself, and every word out of her mouth was a lie. People are kind of good at detecting authenticity. So, having not see it, that's my gut impression.

That, and it's not a random sample. It's a highlight reel meant to entertain and be dramatic. Anecdotes can definitely humanize issues or bring struggles to light, but it is ultimately a movie, not a scholarly and representative study. I'm sure some women are ruthless, insecure, and rude. Just like some men are rapey bastards. But a documentary can't possibly tell you how many. I only know how I and my friends behave, and it's not like that.

>> "I personally don't find men approaching me in a bar to be creepy. Some women do."

>Ok, but if two recipients of the attention feel differently about it then which is right? They cannot both be correct. Is the man's action inappropriate or not?

We've agreed that creepiness is subjective. So, sure, they can both be correct. Especially when you consider other factors. Was she sitting in a group with her friends and you butted in? Was she already in a conversation with another man and you interrupted? Did she have headphones on? Prior to your approach, had the two of you made eye contact? Smiled at each other? Did you follow her outside or to the bathroom? Was she sitting at the bar or a private table? What kind of expression did she have on her face?

Remember: other people's behavior is WAY more situational and way less dispositional than we may assume.

I'm not sure if I am the one who is making it black and white, here.

We can agree to disagree on the extreme example, because I'm talking about people who are below average attractiveness, and you're talking about someone who is grotesque and hard to look at.

Rethinking it, the "flower" thing is, itself, slightly creepy. If the same warty disfigured person approached me in Sagrada Familia and said, "I noticed you didn't pay $14 extra for an audioguide. I just finished mine and am about to leave. Do you want to use it?" I wouldn't find that creepy. If the disfigured warty person approached me in the metro and said, "I'm on my way to the airport, but I still have 4 rides left on my card -- do you want it?" I wouldn't think that was creepy, either. (Even though, due to the disfigurations, it WOULD be uncomfortable.) These are things with extrinsic value. A flower only has intrinsic value. Given by a stranger... I mean, I guess I might smile. Flowers are pretty. Giving flowers is nice, maybe, if the person gives it to you and walks away. If they don't walk away, my hackles go up. You don't know me and you just gave me this loving token of affection. Why? If it's like a monk or a nun, I assume they now want a donation for their church. If it's a dude, I assume he's trying to invoke the reciprocity principle and try to manipulate me into giving him something in return: my number, my time. I don't know. Endless hypothetical social situations are complicated.

Uncomfortable and creepy are two different things. But if your behavior makes someone feel uncomfortable and you don't stop, you are being creepy. You're not creepy for trying to hold my hand once, even though I didn't like it because to me, handholding is really intimate. But you ARE creepy for trying to hold my hand AGAIN immediately after I take it away from you.

Girls don't like being cornered, pestered, and interrupted. When people do that to them, it makes them feel uncomfortable, because it is creepy. It implies a disregard for reciprocity or consent. It is both uncomfortable and creepy.

Giving a flower can be uncomfortable, or it can be creepy, or it can be both.

You are right -- bad breath is more uncomfortable than creepy. But if you have bad breath, so I scoot further away from you, and you scoot closer to me... that's creepy. I created space. You took it away. You demonstrated you don't give a shit about my boundaries, my consent, my reciprocity.

Again, I don't think racism is the same thing at all...

But to address your examples:

>> If the white women were uncomfortable with a "too-friendly" black man who gave her an "inappropriate" smile/grin, would she be correct in calling him creepy?

In a modern context, I think lots of people would be uncomfortable with a "too-friendly" anyone. But you're talking about something completely different from a different time with way too many confounding factors. Horrible things have happened to black men because of white women, and there's no excuse for that. Horrible things have also happened to black women because of white men.

>> If she was scared when a group of black men walked by, would they be "creepy"?

Again, this is a completely different topic

9/20/2019 04:32:17 pm

(cont) >> If she was scared when a group of black men walked by, would they be "creepy"?

Again, this is a completely different topic. Lots of social justice types say it's racist to cross the street when you feel uncomfortable. I say... if you're scared or intimidated, trust your gut. Like, best case, if they even notice you notice you crossing the street (which, if they're involved in their own conversation rather than creepily watching you walk towards them, they probably won't), they might be a little hurt. Worst case, you ignore your gut and you get raped and spend the rest of your life blaming yourself for not trusting your gut.

But I think any group of men, regardless of skin color, should be sympathetic to the feeling a lone woman would feel approaching them... If you're such a whiny, persecuted little boy that THAT offends you... perhaps you're the kind of person the woman is better off crossing the street to avoid.

I don't think they would be creepy just by standing there. I do think she has a right to feel safe. However, if they noticed her cross the street, obviously because she was feeling vulnerable or intimidated or uncomfortable, and the men decided to taunt her, shout at her, or follow her -- THAT would be creepy.

>> If such a woman finds black men creepy, does her feeling that way actually make it true?

It depends. Did he/they do something creepy?

>> Feelings do not equal truth... Just because a woman feels creeped out does not mean the other person is necessarily being creepy.

Interactions go two ways. How you behave should be a response to how the other person behaves. Just because you don't FEEL like you're being creepy, doesn't make that true, either.

Feelings are subjective. Creepiness is subjective and situational. Some men are gross. Some women are mean. Some dudes refuse to examine their own behavior and try to be more mindful and respectful moving forward, because they'd rather continue being creepy than acknowledge that their past behaviors made people uncomfortable.

>>Sometimes a poor man in tatters might seem more creepy than rich guy in silk suit.

A poor man in tatters and I likely have nothing in common. What would we even talk about? People like people who are like them, in terms of values, career, SES, religion, politics, background, attractiveness, intelligence, etc. etc. etc.

To someone from a really marginalized community, though, the silk suit guy might scare the hell out of you. Maybe he's here to BUY a teenage girl. Maybe he's here to tell the single moms who work three jobs that he's increasing their rent -- but he's sure they can make another arrangement if they can't afford it. WINK. Maybe he's a drug dealer. Maybe he's a pimp. Either way, it's creepier to see him walking around than a guy in tatters.

>> Ableism: What about someone on the autism spectrum who means absolutely no harm but is socially inept?

It's not my job to educate and rehabilitate someone who is socially inept. You're not entitled to my affection or attention, just because you're on the spectrum. If your behavior makes me uncomfortable, I'm not going to date you.

Moreover, just because you MEAN no harm, doesn't mean you're incapable of causing harm.

9/21/2019 09:10:21 pm

Hi Eva,

Thanks again for your thorough responses.

I must admit that I am disappointed and surprised by your responses and the way you interpreted the hypothetical situations I offered. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, like "I'm disappointed in you, foolish child" or anything like that. I just mean personally inside myself, I realize that the effort I put into writing my words really didn't land with you at all and isn't going to. You seem to have a very strong sense of how things are in the world based on your experience, and no suggestions to the contrary are going to alter that, at least not coming from strangers on the internet.

I can understand that, though. We all can be like that sometimes, and I definitely have been guilty of that before too.

I wish you had done more self-reflection and really made an effort to use my prompts to help question your thinking. Maybe I didn't convey them well enough. I'm not asking you to throw the baby out with the bath water and abandon everything you believe, haha, merely to take to heart the suggestion that some of your convictions might be a little shortsighted and not seeing the whole picture. That's part of the process of learning and growing: to come to realize that issues are more nuanced than we thought, and blame cannot be assigned so easily. What we once thought was a clear case of "that's creepy, don't do it" is actually not necessarily the dynamic we originally thought it was.

Your attempts to keep explaining what constitutes creepy behavior is a little strange to me. As if you think I don't already understand those things, or have no clue why women are complaining about creepiness. Of course I do. That you would assume I somehow don't understand these things and that my hypothetical thought experiments and comparisons to racism are irrelevant ... is weird to me. You really believe that there is nothing deeper to what I'm saying, nothing beneath your merely superficial reading of what I wrote. I find that surprising and a little frustrating.

Anyway, I'm sorry if this sounded like a lecture. I just wanted to be honest with you rather than just say, "Ok, we'll agree to disagree".

There's no point in my responding to any points you made because I don't feel like you have any actual interest in changing your mind about this topic. In all these comments, you haven't really expressed that you might have overstated something or admitted something might be more nuanced that you original thought. Although, you did say these things:

> "I agree that it can arbitrarily punish dudes who had no idea they'd done something wrong."
> "I still think that in most cases, "creepy" comes down to reciprocity, but I agree that some women (and some men) can be harsh, unfair, and superficial."

So, I do appreciate that. It shows a crack in the armor, haha, which I think is good. We all think that we're more openminded than we actually are.

I'm sorry that you have had some bad experiences with men. Of course, we've had bad experiences with women too, but that doesn't negate the stuff you have had to put up with. I will continue to fight for true equality, love, and respect for you and everyone.

I wish you the best, and may we all learn from each other and have more compassion and less assumptions as we go forward.

Take care.

9/22/2019 11:19:36 am

I know "it depends on context" isn't a satisfying answer, and it's not an EASY answer, but it's true. Every person and situation is different, which is part of why giving advice on interpersonal topics is so hard. You can't just say, "If someone did X and the other person did Y, is that fair?" because so much is missing from that hypothetical. The whole point of this post is that you HAVE to pay attention to the social cues, because in most cases (yes, I acknowledged, some women are superficial or judge-y, but some men are also jerks) that's going to be a key factor in whether someone finds you creepy.

A creepy person is someone who either doesn't notice or doesn't care when he's making you uncomfortable. A creepy person is someone who feels ENTITLED to your time, touch, or personal information.

There's nothing shortsighted about my "experience" or "convictions" or whatever. If someone is offering you advice that they say applies to all situations, they're either creepy, or full of shit.

We can continue to agree to disagree on comparisons that I think are irrelevant. Racism in the 1950s and women wanting their boundaries respected in 2019 are two different things to me. Would you seriously compare a black man being lynched to a white man being called creepy?

All I've said in ANY of these comments is that situations are complicated, and that is why you have to pay attention to social cues and develop the kind of mindfulness and attentiveness that makes people you talk to feel more comfortable.

Moreover, if you're willing to quickly and immediately dismiss any negative interaction with women as, "Women are shallow, and I obviously did NOTHING wrong, I'm just not attractive enough," you might not be capable of the "self-reflection" to learn and grow from a bad experience.

> "It shows a crack in the armor, haha, which I think is good. "

No. Because I clearly said, over and over, that every situation is different, and some men and some women are mean. It would be great if you could tell by looking at them which women are cruel and which men are violent, but you can't. That's why cruel and violent people have such a steady supply of victims.

So you can either live your whole life assuming the worst about everyone and never trying to improve yourself... Or you can acknowledge that different people and situations are different, and try to learn ways to notice and respond to other people's behavior.

I appreciate you taking the time to comment

Nomad

9/20/2019 06:26:07 am

This is moronic. It’s extremely hypocritical in an age where women cry about fat shaming and everything else under the sun. So you say a man can’t even talk to a woman if he isn’t hot enough? Get off your high horse, most of these women aren’t exactly hotties themselves. Even if they were it doesn’t mean you have some right to be nasty to people without getting negative feed back. You don’t have to date people you aren’t attracted too but have some common courtesy.

9/20/2019 02:27:35 pm

I said none of those things -- don't be so hypersensitive. Take a deep breath, calm down, and actually read the article.

Because all it says is don't be creepy. It is very creepy to flirt with or hit on someone who isn't interested. It's fine to introduce yourself. It's weird to try to force her to talk to you or start touching her when it's not very obvious she's into it.

If you don't want to date a fat girl, don't date a fat girl. I wouldn't date a fat dude, either. How could he possibly keep up with me on my multi-day hiking trips, surf adventures, etc?

I value kindness and politeness, but I don't always have the time, and I don't owe anyone shit. Especially someone who won't back off, even when I've clearly indicated I'm not interested.

9/22/2019 02:07:37 pm

"I wouldn't date a fat dude, either. How could he possibly keep up with me on my multi-day hiking trips, surf adventures, etc.?"

My college girlfriend and I would spend our "us" time on all-day hiking trips, back-woods biking, and whatever else could get us out of our dorm rooms. I helped her train for the rowing team in the offseason by being her middle and bowman. Mind you, this was when I was on a football scholarship which depended largely on a playing weight of 320 lbs, which, consequently, carried with it a body fat percentage of 32.

Away from other's prying eyes, we had a fun and loving relationship. We were able to enjoy each other's company. She was able to make me forget how fat, abnormal, slobbish and physically disgusting most girls made feel. However, when we were around her friends, and pretty much everyone else, people would pay backhanded compliments to us.

"Wow, YOU sure are a lucky guy!"..."It's refreshing to see opposites attract"..."Your beau is like a big teddy bear"..."You've got a whole lot of man to love!"

The insincerity and a patronizing words of these people really hurt. A lot. What made me such a freak to them that I wasn't worthy of dating my girlfriend?

Her friends asked her questions that were none of their business, but were so burning to them that they had to sacrifice some level of common decency and respect on their part just to find out. They asked her what she could possibly find so attractive about a guy with no jawline and such a large waistline. They asked her if she was dating me out desperation, pity, or lack of options. They asked her if any of the fat guy stereotypes were true, such as being sweaty, body odor, and other claims of poor hygiene. They even had the nerve to ask her about our sex life. How is it physically possible for a man of that size and shape to perform the act? Does he have ED because of his weight? How can you possibly overcome and look past his big stomach and body fat rubbing against you?

Most of all, "How does he even have the energy to have sex with you, let alone go out and enjoy other physical activities you enjoy?"
To their embarrassment, or not, she informed them that I was a starting offensive tackle, that I was no stranger to the weight room, and that I was perfectly capable of keeping up with her every aspect of our relationship--both inside and outside of the bedroom.

She heard it all the time. Even when she dumped those rude friends and got new friends, the judgements and attitudes were still the same.

That said, you'll have to excuse me if I have reservations about your premise of fat guys not keeping up with you. You'd be surprised how many of us can keep up, and even run circles around you in some activities. I do not believe you when you say your refusal to date a fat guy is based on his fitness. You don't want to date them because you find them physically unattractive, and this BS fitness argument is a convenient excuse for you to avoid the "shallow" label.

If you are physically repulsed by fat men, that's fine. That is your personal preference and you have the right to find them repulsive, but does it make it RIGHT to offer an obvious false reason for not finding them attractive and scolding people from inside your glass house that THEY are being "shallow jerks?" Does it make it right to say such derogatory things about men's bodies on a public forum while saying that they should feel good about themselves? Does it make it right to correlate "creepiness" and "lack of reciprocity" to unattractive men (even before their first approach), but give highly "attractive" men an exemption in the same setting?

P.S., I've never surfed, and I don't think that I have the body type for it. But even if I could surf, I wouldn't do it with someone who looked down their nose at me and made prejudicial statements because of my body. You sound just like the girls that asked my girlfriend those nasty questions. You may not realize it, but you're just catty, petty, and judgmental. I doubt it if a man wrote a piece criticizing the various things he didn't like about certain women.

9/24/2019 03:13:21 pm

Well, in that case, it sounds like your girlfriend had shitty friends. They must not have known her that well, to not even know that her boyfriend was on the football team (college sports are a HUGE time commitment, to the point that "student-athlete" can feel like a misnomer -- so how the heck would a caring friend miss that?). The questions they were asking her also sound super invasive and obnoxious and ignorant. These definitely sound like the types of girls that are unnecessarily cruel, and it sucks that both of you had to deal with them.

I've also dated guys with large waistlines who were energetic -- we biked around Lake Tahoe and played basketball together, and it blew my mind that he could accelerate faster than me, because basically no one can do that. We had a long and loving relationship that started on the basketball court.

The first time we met, we had a great conversation, but he got nervous and didn't ask for my number, then went home and told his housemates, "I met an amazing girl, and I'll probably never see her again."

The second time we met, several weeks later, he DID ask for my number... but his phone died that night, and he lost all his contacts. He told his housemates, "She's going to wonder why I didn't call, and I'll probably never see her again."

The third time we met, I was there with this other guy I knew. He was tall and handsome and muscular and slender. He seemed smart, but I didn't know him too well. There was definitely a physical attraction.

After the game, the first man invited both me and that hot, slender guy to get dinner with him. We said yes, because this guy was a really good athlete and it had been a fun game.

During that dinner, every time the "hot" guy opened his mouth, he got less attractive to me. He didn't say anything dumb -- he just wasn't nearly as smart or witty as the "fat" guy, who literally looked more physically attractive to me every time he said something I didn't know about neuroscience, or made a joke that was almost TOO clever.

And he continued getting more attractive to me every time I learned something new about him.

Had he approached me randomly in a bar -- you're right. I wouldn't have known we had any shared interests or activities, so who knows what would have happened. But the fact is, he didn't immediately start hitting on me or make me feel like the only reason he was talking to me was because he thought I was hot. He didn't assume he had no chance with me, just because I showed up at the gym that third night with someone who was more physically attractive (so it seemed -- like I said, every day, I found this guy more and more PHYSICALLY attractive). He had the confidence to ask us BOTH out to dinner, then let his light shine.

We dated for about a year, and it was wonderful, but ultimately didn't work out.

In other words, there are obviously exceptions, and getting to know someone is a good way to let them know you are an exception. The behavior of your girlfriend's friends was absolutely shitty, and I'm glad no one said anything like that to me, because I would have ripped them a new one.

9/22/2019 06:53:59 pm

* I doubt that you would like it if a man wrote a piece criticizing the various things he didn't like about certain women's body parts.

9/24/2019 02:54:03 pm

I'm not a social justice warrior. I think men are allowed to like or dislike whatever women's body parts they want, from stomach fat to small boobs to "lady dicks."

9/25/2019 08:52:00 am

This does not comport with your prior sentiment of people being "shallow jerks."

Make up your mind, and start making sense with what you're writing.

9/25/2019 12:48:25 pm

Hahaha, okay. :P

qmulus

10/8/2019 04:42:20 pm

>"But another part of the reason may be that attractive men simply have more experience talking to and flirting with women. Communication is hard and messy, and the only way to get good at it is through practice."

So how is this unnatractive man supposed to get good at flirting if his efforts are never reciprocated? How is he supposed to learn these skills if even his approaching is discouraged and/or rebuffed?

>"If you spend a lot of time watching porn and playing video games, you're not going to be as good at flirting or communicating as someone who goes out to bars, joins co-ed sports leagues, spends time pursuing hobbies, and makes plans to meet up with friends."

How is this man supposed to learn how to flirt in these situations if his clumsy attempts can get him labelled as creepy among those said circles? Should he just say, "I'm sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable. I'm just not very good at this. But, I'm learning."?

>"Adding to the potential perception of creepiness is that it IS strange that someone who was so very clearly "not in my league" would approach me, because it almost kind of implies a disregard for reciprocity or consent?"

Are you implying that your reciprocity and/or consent to be engaged in conversation is determined beforehand simply based on a man's physical attractiveness? Any man who is "so very clearly" not in your league is in violation for even attempting to take a shot?

That's like saying, "He should have the social intelligence to know that he isn't on my level and that he has no chance, so why is he even trying? This is a violation of my right not to be bothered by ugly men."

>"That's also why I suggested unattractive guys take a different approach. Instead of instantly hitting on a girl, show her how witty, smart, and awesome you are. Get her interested in something other than your looks, THEN ask her out."

And how does he even start down that path if he can't even approach her and engage her in conversation?

Besides, I don't know what dating is for you, but for me, it IS a process for getting to know her better. Otherwise, how is a man supposed to make it clear that he is interested in her on more than a plutonic level?

Just taking the time get to know without any sexual/romantic or even flirtatious component is likely to land him in the friendzone.

>"That's why I suggest to men who aren't "conventionally attractive" that they get to know and appreciate someone as a real person before hitting on them. "

You're assuming that they don't already have an intrinsic sense of appreciation for the woman in question. You're implying that the act of getting to know her on a strictly plutonic will result in her returning his interest. I can tell you from experience that is RARELY the case.

What Men Don't Understand When They Complain, "It's Only Creepy If The Guy Isn't Hot."

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