If a Girl You Were Hitting On Was Rude to You, It's Probably Your Fault

1/10/2020

The last place I ever expected my writing to get shared... was incel forums. The Happy Talent is about taking accountability and making changes to self-improve. Incel forums are about whining like little boys and blaming women for all your flaws and shortcomings.

In particular, these man-children complain that I say things like, "Here are actionable steps to not seem creepy," and, "No means no."

Nevertheless, I have faith that at least some of these guys actually want to do better. Stop acting creepy. Find love.

Which is why today's lesson is: if a girl you were hitting on was rude to you, it's probably your fault.

Incel types love complaining about how women are ruthlessly cruel when unattractive men have the nerve to speak to them. And I'm sure that a tiny minority of women are unnecessarily mean to men they're not attracted to. That sucks. Guess what? Some guys are unnecessarily mean, too. They even do things like catcall, intimidate, and assault women.

But you can't live your whole life fearing this tiny number of women.

Because the vast majority of people are kind. The vast majority of women want to be seen as polite -- and therefore, are inclined to let you down gently, whether through an apologetic, "I have a boyfriend," or through nonverbal signals of disinterest.

I am all for women being more direct and verbal with their feelings and intentions. I've written multiple posts advising women how to feel more comfortable screaming NO in a guy's face, demanding that a man get his hand off her knee, and confronting someone for inappropriate behaviors, even in public.

But if you want to ever have a girlfriend, then you need to learn how to pay attention to women's cues, verbal and nonverbal. If you don't, all women will hate you and think you are creepy.

Because of your bad behavior and lack of social skills, a polite, "No thanks," is going to turn into an angry, "LEAVE. ME. ALONE." Then you're going to scurry back to your little forum to cry about how cruel and mean and unfair women are to you, all because you have narrow shoulders or whatever.

Let me share a recent example to illustrate the point.

I'm a musician, and I played in a showcase this week. Because the show was about an hour away from where most of my friends live, I didn't invite anyone to the show or bring along a roadie.

Meaning I showed carrying my guitar; a handbag containing two harmonicas (a Fender in A and a Hohner in G), a harmonica neck holder, a Tascam audio recorder, and a mug of licorice root tea; a tripod; and a Sony a7III.

Before my set, I still had to tune, set up the audio recorder, set up the camera, and get everything I'd need on stage (harmonicas, tea, set list, capo), on stage. I had to get my soundhole pickup in my Guild, speak with the sound engineer -- and, who knows? Maybe even brush my hair or mentally run through some of my songs before the show.

Without me having to say or nonverbally indicate anything, it should have been obvious that I was quite busy as I moved from tripod to tripod to soundboard to my handbag full of things, or as I fussed with the pickup and the tuner.

But no!

This guy I don't even know keeps getting in my way, trying to make small talk.

"Oh! You play guitar! Are you performing tonight?"

"Yes," I said, smiling, as I headed to the stage, "And I hope you'll stick around! But I've got to finish setting up."

Two seconds later: "So, what do you like to do for fun?"

"This. Music. Excuse me."

And I hurry off to complete another task.

Two more seconds later:

"Do you work around here?"

"No, I just surf here," I replied, turning away.

"What kind of music do you play?"

"You'll see in five minutes, won't you?"

"So are you from California, or did you move here?"

Looking up from my tuner, I'd finally had enough.

"Can you leave me alone? I'm busy."

I'm sure the story from his perspective is, "Oh! I was just being nice to her, and she was such an evil bitch to me!"

But the reality of the situation is, I was not "rude." HE was. I tried being nice SEVERAL TIMES before finally telling him, "Leave me alone."

Had he backed off when I told him, "I've got to finish setting up," I'd have nothing to complain about.

I'm not mad he approached me. I'm not mad that someone to whom I wasn't physically attracted tried to make polite conversation with me. It's not because I'm "so out of his league" and "how dare he think I might be interested in him," as the incels would have you think.

It's why couldn't this guy take a hint?

It's why was this guy so rude to me?

It's how could someone be so inconsiderate?

Most women are not mean. Some are. But in the majority of cases, I suspect if a woman was "rude" to you, it was your fault.

Reflect upon the encounter and the moments leading up to it -- then do better next time.

I wouldn't be writing this if I didn't think there is hope for you.

If you need a few reading recommendations to get you started, try:

The Charisma Myth: How Anyone Can Master the Art and Science of Personal Magnetism, by Olivia Fox Cabane
Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway: Dynamic Techniques for Turning Fear, Indecision, and Anger into Power, Action, and Love, by Susan Jeffers PhD
Taking Responsibility: Self-Reliance and the Accountable Life, by Nathaniel Branden

And remember: social skills are just that. Skills. You can improve them by focusing on developing them and being more mindful in future interactions.

11 Comments

2/6/2020 09:54:37 am

Ya there is some truth to this. But I do get annoyed that whenever men point out problems with women they are gaslit that these problems are fake or exaggerated.

We're are not just talking about women being rude. Women are granted authority in this society to ruin any man's life on a whim. I never see feminists complain about stuff like this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7557947/Shy-awkward-student-19-faces-JAIL-sex-assault-conviction.html
Or this:
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/august/autistic-college-students-fist-bump-and-selfie-turn-into-unbelievable-nightmare

As for incels it's not enough to tell men that they have to step up or do better. In the past year one third of men ages 18-40 have not had sex, which is a record high. Numbers this large mean that there are large scale societal forces at work. Probably this is a result of dating apps. Here is a better take on incels from Chris Goodall:
https://www.quora.com/Do-incels-have-a-point

Eva obviously has made good life choices and takes care of herself. But even if she made good life choices but was born a 5'6 Asian male without a lot of money she might very well have never had sex. Reading her moralizing incels by blaming everything on their own poor choices is like watching a rich white guy go to the hood and tell black people to do better.

I think every man is entitled to a wife and that society needs to be structured in such a way that this happens. Liberal societies seem to regress to how things where in the prehistoric past (a few men get all the women). The problem is that this is not conducive to maintaining an advanced society.

Eva Glasrud link

2/7/2020 10:24:09 am

NO WOMAN is obligated to tolerate behavior that makes her feel uncomfortable, even if the behavior is done by someone who is more "oppressed" than her, like an autistic man. Just because he has autism, doesn't mean he can't hurt her or that he has a right to make her uncomfortable. (You've read Of Mice and Men, right?) A situation like that sucks, sure, because maybe he sincerely didn't know any better. But the days of telling women they need to "tolerate discomfort" because other people's feelings supersede hers are over.

>> "As for incels it's not enough to tell men that they have to step up or do better. In the past year one third of men ages 18-40 have not had sex, which is a record high. Numbers this large mean that there are large scale societal forces at work. Probably this is a result of dating apps."

I can't redeem the irredeemable. But for those who want to do better, advice like this can help. Instead of feeling wounded and victimized -- which is SO not sexy -- take accountability. Self-reflect. Think about what you might be doing that repels women.

One third seems high, and I would question the methodology used to obtain that number. There is obviously a crisis going on with today's men -- especially young men. There's a testosterone crisis, which doctors can't explain (I think it's a combination of environmental contaminants, like plastic, flame retardants, birth control, etc., and psychological issues that come from porn and video games and social media).

But at the end of the day, if you're unable to attract a partner, you DO need to step up and self-improve. Maybe that means working out. Maybe that means getting a better job. Maybe that means learning better social skills, so you don't creep women out. Maybe that means UNlearning toxic attitudes about women, sex, and relationships. Maybe that means dressing better. Maybe that means stop trying to touch women who don't want to be touched -- it may achieve some short-term goal of getting to hold hands or getting a kiss goodnight, but it also makes women never want to see you again, because you violated their boundaries and they don't like or trust you anymore. Maybe it means visiting a doctor to find out if you have low t and what you can do about it. Maybe it means cutting back on porn.

But if you're not able to date, you're probably doing something wrong.

>> "Eva obviously has made good life choices and takes care of herself. But even if she made good life choices but was born a 5'6 Asian male without a lot of money she might very well have never had sex. Reading her moralizing incels by blaming everything on their own poor choices is like watching a rich white guy go to the hood and tell black people to do better."

I know plenty of 5'6 Asian guys who have no trouble getting laid and dating amazing women. If you're someone who's going to blame all your problems on your height, it's no wonder women don't want to date you. Accountability and self-awareness is sexy. Whining and blaming and making excuses is not. We have our whole lives to be mommies. But until then, we want to be girlfriends and wives.

>> "I think every man is entitled to a wife..."

NOPE. Women aren't property. You aren't OWED one, just because you have a penis. If you're an idiot or an asshole or a manchild, you are not entitled to shit. If you're a sexy billionaire, you're also not entitled to shit.

If, as you say, a few men get all the women, and you're not one of the men getting all the women, it might be worth asking yourself:

"What is it about me that makes women more willing to share 1/5th of one man's love, attention, and resources, than to accept 100% of mine?"

(Chances are, it has something to do with the fact that you think she is property that is owed to you?)

This isn't "gaslighting." It's just true. "Gaslighting" means a specific thing, and I hate how it's misused so often, on both sides, that it's come to mean nothing.

Anderson

2/8/2020 03:46:00 pm

Low testosterone? Cutting back on porn?

Please explain.

2/10/2020 03:35:47 pm

The low testosterone thing, like I said, isn't well-understood. We only know it's real, alarming, and serious -- and it's a problem a lot of men are unwilling to seek help for, because it's "embarrassing." (And, from what I understand, there aren't a ton of great treatment options.)

The porn thing, I discussed a little in 5 Reasons To Stop Watching (or at least cut back on) Porn:

http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/5-reasons-to-stop-or-at-least-cut-back-on-watching-porn)

Basically, a lot of men are stuck in a shitty cycle, where they don't need to leave their rooms to be entertained (they can play video games) or have sexual gratification (they can watch porn). So they don't develop good social skills or gain sexual experience. So they feel anxious about actually going out in real life and trying to meet real women. So they play more video games and watch more porn. Meanwhile, the FOMO kicks in even harder, while the men develop additional hangout about real-life sexual interactions. For one, their dicks are likely to be considerably smaller than the ones they see constantly in porn. For two, they get kind of desensitized by the endless variety of what many would consider to be "unrealistic" women (I don't really agree with the idea that porn actresses are unrealistically hot... but I suppose it's true that they are much hotter than the women most men could actually seduce). It makes them self-conscious and very anxious, because it actually gets difficult to get turned on or stay hard with actual women. So... they stay home and play video games and jerk it to porn. The cycle continues. (I'd love to test a hypothesis, and I'm sure someone already has, that this anxiety, loneliness, and negative self-image probably contribute to low t.)

This (and other issues) is discussed further in Man Interrupted: Why Today's Young Men Are Suffering, and What We Can Do About It (https://amzn.to/37lUcI0).

Basically, porn contributes to a number of factors that make men miserable.

2/8/2020 03:43:22 pm

FH,

You made a couple of good points and a couple of bad ones.

The good:

It IS annoying when men point out their problems with women only to have it thrown back in their faces. Whereas women who do the same thing are told that it is men that need to make the adjustments: stop being so shallow, stop rejecting women who show you interest even though you're not attracted to them, stop expecting so much from women…stop watching porn (???!!!).

There ARE evil, malicious women out there who take deep offense to sharing the same air with men they deem as repulsive and "irredeemable." The points of evidence from the articles you provided, that Eva couldn't be bothered to respond to, are incontrovertible truths to the growing issue men like this face from said evil women. Ironically, Eva does not realize she is blind to her own privilege when she scolds men who are justifiably scared to improve their interpersonal skills through real-life practice, when these are the very real, and terrifying, consequences that men can face.

Eva wants to avoid having a much broader, complex discussion by dismissing potential external, sociological factors that are conducive to dating struggles in favor of a simple, finger-pointing tactic that simply, and conveniently, places blame entirely on the person struggling. It's just lazy, obtuse and sanctimonious—which is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not sexy.

The bad:

Basically, your entire last paragraph. No man is entitled to a wife, just like no woman is entitled to a husband. There are droves of women who can't get a date/laid if their lives depended on it. As harsh and improbable as it may be, these people essentially have three options: (1) improve their attractiveness, (2) settle for someone who is desperate enough to date them, (3) get used to being alone. Unfortunately, women are not told this enough, and when they are, social forces are there to give them emotional support and stand up for them. For all we know, Eva could be guilty of doing this.

P.S.

Eva has criticized men on her blog for being shallow, but then says that they should "work out" and "get better jobs," to be date-worthy. SMH

2/10/2020 03:39:34 pm

Interested where you got the idea I think men are shallow. I feel like what I've said is that men are visually stimulated, and many of the things we find physically attractive in potential mates are hardwired preferences, and no one should feel bad about that....

BUT.

If you're, like, a 6, and you're a whiny incel because none of the 9s and 10s want to date you, it's worth maybe giving yourself a reality check?

I think there are plenty of things plenty of women can do to be more "date-worthy," as you call it, but this blog post isn't for women. It's for men who are ready to self-improve and hopefully find a partner.

3/21/2020 09:25:38 am

I've never truly understood the 1-10 attractiveness spectrum, as if it were some universal measure of desirability that invariably applies to everyone. So I think you're being hasty to use it in this context.

I mean who gets to decide who scores as 6s, and who scores as 9s and 10s? TransUnion? Equifax?

You may see someone as a 6, but someone else may see them as a 9 or 10. I've seen pictures of you, and you don't show up on my attraction radar at all, but that doesn't mean other men (or women) are not attracted to you. And it certainly doesn't mean that you are morally obligated to subscribe to the attraction spectrum and date people that you are not attracted to just because some arbitrary social construct ranked you in his category on said spectrum. Otherwise you would feel manipulated and deprived of your agency, wouldn't you?

Speaking of manipulation, I disagree with your position on pornography. Pornography is an expression of sexual entertainment. It is a mechanism to elicit sexual arousal for the purpose of a subsequent sexual release. This is natural and nothing to be ashamed. If porn is viewed in this context, it can be argued that romance novels and vibrators also qualify as pornography for women who are between partners, but I don't hear you criticizing them for satisfying their natural sexual needs.

Honestly, I think that you're just taking the position of the average woman who feels insecure about men paying more attention to porn rather than her. They resent men for wanting the women in porn more than their bodies, which fits the very definition of entitlement. It really is a manipulation tactic: shame men for watching porn—>men stop watching porn to escape the shame—>men pay more attention and vie for the attention of the women who shamed them by doing the things that said women tell them to do—>women get what THEY want to the exclusion of men's wants because they are not truly attracted to them.

"It's for men who are ready to self-improve…"

With as much specificity as you can manage, what do you consider "self-improvement?"

3/21/2020 11:01:17 am

Scales of attractiveness are important measures when conducting certain kinds of social science, and even medical, research. I'm not being hasty at all in this context, unless decades of researchers before me were also being hasty. It's really not hard to rate/rank people, especially now, with big data. There have been some interesting findings coming out of online dating sites about, for example, means vs. SDs and how that affects your luck in dating.

Obviously, there are objective and subjective components to someone's attractiveness. Objectively, I'm very attractive, but some men can't deal with a woman who is taller or stronger than they are, so obviously subjectively it isn't going to work out between us. (I see this as a good thing -- I wouldn't want to waste my time with someone who was that insecure.)

Re porn: you're just... wrong. I'm sure there is a healthy way to use it, but it's psychologically, socially, and emotionally damaging to a lot of men, regardless of age, but especially to younger men and boys. There's a lot of research on this -- a good starting point, if you don't have the patience for peer review, is Man Interrupted: Why Today's Young Men Are Suffering, And What We Can Do About It (https://amzn.to/33uAaut).

I think you might have some kind of porn hangup if THAT'S what you took from this. This is an article about respecting other people's boundaries (your ability to do which is negatively affected by too much porn and too many video games, because social skills are SKILLS, meaning you have to PRACTICE them to be good at them). I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, because it sounds like you're not really here to self-improve, but to make random ad hominems and argue against a point no one made. (Though I've got to say, I find it laughable that you think porn stars would make me feel "insecure" -- not even Victoria's Secret models make me feel insecure... they actually make me feel good about myself. See also: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/contrary-to-obnoxious-stereotypes-the-victorias-secret-makes-me-feel-good-about-myself. #ChooseBeautiful)

And obviously I can't be any more specific than "self-improvement," because that's a highly individualized thing that's different for everyone...

3/21/2020 12:57:16 pm

"Scales of attractiveness are important measures when conducting certain kinds of social science, and even medical, research. I'm not being hasty at all in this context, unless decades of researchers before me were also being hasty. It's really not hard to rate/rank people, especially now, with big data. There have been some interesting findings coming out of online dating sites about, for example, means vs. SDs and how that affects your luck in dating."

Really?! So what instrument/data system did you use to rate/rank your score on the attractiveness scale and apply it accordingly to match up with your SO (if you have one) according to his/her equal attractiveness? It would be ironic if you told him/her that you are with him/her based primarily on what a rating system told you of the kind of partner you are worthy of.

Again, these "objective" measures of research are based off of the subjective opinions of others. As such, a number really is only as important as the person of consequence (i.e., your SO), not the entire dating population. As I said, which you don't seem to understand, one person's 6 is another's 10.

"Objectively, I'm very attractive, but some men can't deal with a woman who is taller or stronger than they are, so obviously subjectively it isn't going to work out between us. (I see this as a good thing -- I wouldn't want to waste my time with someone who was that insecure.)"

The measure of attraction is never a matter of fact ("Objectively") and always a matter of opinion and other confounding variables (subjective), so, no, you're not "objectively" attractive, unless you're so egotistical to say that it is a fact that you are attractive. And, no, I couldn't deal with you, not because you are taller (I'm 6'3'') or stronger (unless you can bench press your own body weight like I can), but because you are so obtuse and apathetic and you don't care about why some men might struggle with being able to "practice" social skills and just want to automatically lay blame on those men, and no other outside factors as if no other factors could possibly exist.

"And obviously I can't be any more specific than "self-improvement," because that's a highly individualized thing that's different for everyone…"

Then why the hell are you scolding men for not being successful with women because they need to self-improve, yet you can't offer the slightest suggestion as to what that might mean? You really are the definition of obtuse and paradoxical.

3/26/2020 11:14:54 am

>> "So what instrument/data system did you use to rate/rank your score on the attractiveness scale and apply it accordingly to match up with your SO (if you have one) according to his/her equal attractiveness? It would be ironic if you told him/her that you are with him/her based primarily on what a rating system told you of the kind of partner you are worthy of."

Science research is science research. Their methods make it easy -- perhaps you use a group of raters to rate people's attractiveness on a scale of 1-n, then look for inter-rater reliability, or maybe you analyze the data from an online dating site, or maybe you do something else.

Love and dating and relationships are not the same thing as science research. We love who we love, and there isn't a scientist in the world who can REALLY explain why. As I've said many, many times, I don't pick my partners based on physical attractiveness, and no one picks their partner based on physical attractiveness alone. If that were the case, no attractive person would be single -- but it's not the case, because love and attraction are WAY more complicated than that. It's how you look, how you move, what you say, how you say it, how you sound, how you smell. Attraction is REALLY complicated; physical attraction is very simple by comparison.

>> "Again, these "objective" measures of research are based off of the subjective opinions of others."

Sometimes. But there are also features that are considered beautiful across cultures and over time. For example, the oft-cited example of how fat used to be considered beautiful because, culturally, it was a sign of wealth, health, and success, whereas now, thin is attractive, because it has become a sign of health, wealth, and success. However, other things, like youth (maybe there used to be dudes who were attracted to old age and gray hair, but they've long since been selected against and don't really exist anymore) and waist-to-hip ratio (regardless of what BMI is considered most attractive, a .7 WHR is considered most attractive), tend to be universally agreed upon.

>> " so, no, you're not "objectively" attractive, unless you're so egotistical to say that it is a fact that you are attractive. "

I'm not egotistical. I'm just not blind.

>> "you are so obtuse and apathetic and you don't care about why some men might struggle with being able to "practice" social skills and just want to automatically lay blame on those men, and no other outside factors as if no other factors could possibly exist."

Again... you've missed the point. This post isn't a rant against such men. It's actionable advice for such men. Because I think they CAN do better. Yes, I'm allowed to blame them for having shitty social skills. It's not my fault! And I'm not OBLIGATED to give someone who is imposing on my time or energy my time and energy. I don't owe anyone anything. If someone makes me feel disrespected or uncomfortable, I have every right to tell him to fuck off; to scream in his face; and to advise my female friends that that guy is creepy and potentially dangerous.

You have every right not to date anyone for any reason -- go ahead and say, "I don't date fat girls," "I only date girls with vaginas," or, "I won't date a short guy." That's your right. Just like it's my right not to date someone who disrespects my clearly-stated boundaries or makes me feel uncomfortable.

>> "Then why the hell are you scolding men for not being successful with women because they need to self-improve, yet you can't offer the slightest suggestion as to what that might mean? "

Again. Because this is a blog post meant for a general audience, not an email to a specific individual of whom I have personal knowledge and insights. I can't magically tell random people on the internet I've never seen or met or interacted with how they, specifically, can self-improve. I can give them some advice and suggestions on how to get started -- for example, get over your childish victimhood complex. I'm not sure what you're confused about, here.

Chris

4/24/2021 04:58:38 pm

Unlike piano, acting or math, practicing social skills requires multiple WILLING participants.

And unlike piano, acting or math paying someone to be teach them social skills doesn't necessarily translate in tangible improvements.

With other skills, say painting, with enough practice and modern tools even someone who's not very gifted can get to a point where they could potentially get a few paid side gigs.

With social skills if someone is unlikeable, they are still unlikeable even if the pay a therapist and a personal trainer.

Sure, more social skills practice might open them up to making a few fairweather friends - and being used and abused, but it won't make them more likeable.

Once someone has an opinion of you it's actually very hard to change their opinion which is why first impressions matter so much.

If a Girl You Were Hitting On Was Rude to You, It's Probably Your Fault

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