Just because you're on the spectrum or neurodivergent, doesn't mean you have a right to be creepy.

9/7/2021

Life isn't fair.

Most of us have known this since we were children. Life isn't fair — and that's just so unfair.

One example of life not being fair that's come up a few times, lately, is the fact that flirting with women is harder for people with autism or who are otherwise neurodivergent.

The reason it's been coming up is that I've written a couple of posts about how creepy men who don't want to come across as creepy anymore can be less creepy. These posts include:

In short, the main takeaways from these articles are:

1. Flirting is fun when reciprocated and mutually enjoyable.

2. Flirting is creepy when it is not reciprocated and mutually enjoyed.

3. Pretending that the "exact same behavior" is either seen as flirting or harassment depending on the guy's attractiveness is TOTAL FUCKING BULLSHIT, because it COMPLETELY erases the woman's agency in the situation.

If she's not flirting back and the guy continues hitting on her, he is ABSOLUTELY NOT doing the "exact same thing" as a guy who is flirting with a woman who is showing interest and reciprocation.

The one is making creepy, unwanted advances. The other is flirting. HUGE difference.

If you don't understand the difference — if you don't see why a woman needs to be an enthusiastic partner in order for your flirting not to be creepy, then THAT IS WHY YOU ARE CREEPY.

Your problem isn't your social skills. It's your lack of human decency.

One or more of my articles must have been shared on some kind of autism forum recently, because I've received a few comments and notes — enough that I wanted to address them in this post.

A few individuals have reached out simply to lament, It's really hard to flirt when you're neurodivergent, and it's not fair.

I totally agree. Flirting and dating are tricky even when you don't have differences that make it difficult to pick up on verbal and nonverbal cues. It sucks and is not fair that it's so much harder for some people than it is for others.

The best book I've read on this topic, and one I'd love to hear your thoughts on if you're part of the neurodivergent community, Olivia Fox Cabane's The Charisma Myth: How Anyone Can Master the Art and Science of Personal Magnetism:

The Charisma Myth correctly states that social skills are just that: skills. Some people learn them easily and automatically, with little to no conscious effort. Others — even those who aren't on the spectrum — have to put active, conscious study into developing social skills and situational awareness.

Again, yes. It is unfair that some people need to read and practice these skills. But life isn't fair, and I'm sure you have your share of unfair advantages and privilege in this world, too.

If you have the willingness to work on your social skills, you can avoid past mistakes and act in ways that women won't describe as "creepy."

And here's where some of the feedback I've received gets wonky:

Some of the guys who have reached out seem to think that because social skills are hard for them, that they have some kind of right to creep out women — and that if we don't want to feel unsafe or uncomfortable, we are "ableist."

Nope. Nope, nope, nope.

FIRST OF ALL, if you think you have a "right" to make women uncomfortable, THAT IS EXACTLY WHY YOU ARE CREEPY.

The problem isn't your social skills. It's your lack of humanity and human decency. Yes, you have a disability. That sucks! However, your disability doesn't mean I deserve to feel unsafe or uncomfortable. Your disability doesn't mean I have to endure your creepy comments about my body or inappropriate touches.

If you make me uncomfortable, I get the fuck out. I don't wait around to see if someone whose behavior indicates a lack of respect for (or awareness of) my boundaries, dignity, or safety, is going to hurt me.

I get the fuck out. I scream no in his face. I tell him to leave me alone and get his hands off of me.

I don't care about your feelings. I care about my safety.

And here's a little hint: if I'm screaming at you, it's not because I'm crazy or mean or unreasonable. It's because you are.

As I wrote in If a Girl You Were Hitting On Was Rude to You, It's Probably Your Fault:

The vast majority of people are kind. The vast majority of women want to be seen as polite -- and therefore, are inclined to let you down gently, whether through an apologetic, "I have a boyfriend," or through nonverbal signals of disinterest.

... If you want to ever have a girlfriend, then you need to learn how to pay attention to women's cues, verbal and nonverbal. If you don't, all women will hate you and think you are creepy.

Because of your bad behavior and lack of social skills, a polite, "No thanks," is going to turn into an angry, "LEAVE. ME. ALONE." Then you're going to scurry back to your little forum to cry about how cruel and mean and unfair women are to you, all because you have narrow shoulders or whatever.

It's not your shoulders. It's your creepy disregard for her boundaries. Read more >

If I had to yell at you, you fucked up.

It is unsettling to me how many people have commented or emailed to suggest women endure danger, objectification, and discomfort, just because someone else is on the spectrum. For example, this comment:

DB

"And she shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable and objectified by some creepy dude she doesn't even like just because you were too lazy or emotional to examine and correctly interpret the interactions."

And what about guys with legitimate social disabilities, like high-functioning autism or Asperger's Syndrome? Guys who, through no fault of their own, have their brains hardwired in such a way that being able to examine and interpret other people's emotions is vastly more difficult than "normal" people. To aspies, the author's above comment is basically abelist.

No, DB. It's not "ableist" to want to feel safe. But your creepy male entitlement is showing.

Then there's Doubter:

Feelings do not equal truth. White people used to feel like black people are dangerous. Just because a woman feels creeped out does not mean the other person is necessarily being creepy. And, remember, racism in social interactions continues even today. So does classism: e.g., sometimes a poor man in tatters might seem more creepy than rich guy in silk suit. Ableism: What about someone on the autism spectrum who means absolutely no harm but is socially inept?

Yes. Feelings can be wrong. But it would be outrageously stupid not to remove yourself from a creepy or dangerous situation because you might be "wrong" about feeling unsafe.

I don't give a shit whether someone "means me absolutely no harm but is socially inept." I'm not a magical, miracle, mind reading fortune teller. All I have to go on, to decide if I am safe or not, if your behavior. If YOU are acting creepy, YOU are the problem, not me.

Also, on the topic of male entitlement: it's not my job to educate and rehabilitate someone who is socially inept. You're not entitled to my affection or attention, just because you're on the spectrum. It's not women's job to do the emotional labor of educating someone they don't know and don't feel comfortable around.

Figure out what you're doing wrong, and stop doing it. Otherwise, like I said, your problem isn't your social skills. It's your humanity.

I've received several other notes and comments that are similarly creepy and bizarre... as well as a few that are a little more reasonable. For example, Danny wrote:

I'm 30, I am diagnosed with Asperger's, and I have never had a girlfriend in my life and that makes me sad. I suck at socializing, I have been very clumsy with women in the past, and my confidence couldn't be any lower than it is.

I get why women may have perceived me as "creepy" and undesirable in the past, but I never meant to be those things. In fact I have always tried very hard to improve and be a better man. I'm always striving to be more attractive and socially calibrated. I have made progress, but apparently not enough because women still treat me poorly and avoid me.

Having said all that, women don't help the situation. You talk about reciprocity and flirting with people who are reciprocating. You make it sound so easy! I have studied women's body language and signs of interest for years and I still can't read women. Most of the ways women "flirt" are vague and leave them with the benefit of plausible deniability. They can flirt as much as they want and say they were just being friendly and it's the guy's fault for misreading the signals.

So.... you see the difference between Danny and DB and Doubter, right?

DB and Doubter are all, "We're creepy, but we're disabled, so suck it up and sacrifice your safety and comfort, ladies!"

Danny is all, "I am trying to improve, and here is why it's hard."

Of the three of them, Danny is the one I'd be most likely to date, because he's the only one who seems mature and adult enough to take accountability for his mistakes and try to improve. The others just make excuses and whine — and this is a VERY unattractive trait in men.

I'll add, Danny, that you are not alone in being confused about whether and when women are flirting. As I wrote in We Tell Girls to "Look Out For Each Other" At Parties. Boys Should Be Looking Out For Each Other, Too:

Several psychology studies show that, even sober, men tend to assume women are flirting much more often than they actually are. Basically any instance of a woman smiling and making eye contact (what women would call "basic human courtesy and politeness") is considered a sign of sexual interest.

Most men are terrible at knowing when women are flirting, regardless of whether or not they're on the spectrum.

Then there's CG's message, which, while not creepy and entitled, highlights the fact that life is just not fair.

If everyone shuts a person out, they have no hope to learn regardless of how eager they are to do so. Socializing, like my profession as a software developer, must come from real experience – just as you could spend literally hundreds of hours parsing the documentation of a certain programming language, package, library etc. and still have no idea how to actually write and deploy a functioning application, you can read “How to Win Friends and Influence People” a thousand times, but it will do less for you than 5 minutes of actually socializing.

This prompts the obvious response of “well, that’s not my problem.” In fact, you already convey a similar sentiment in your aforementioned reply to another user on your site, and I won’t disagree with that. That’s entirely your right and it would be contradictory to my own values not to respect that. That said, consider that, as diverse and complex as humans are, such a knee-jerk reaction is quite typical. The end result for those on the receiving end of such an interaction is therefore the Catch-22, where nobody wants to give you a chance because you failed their frivolous social test, and you can’t figure out how to pass said test because the only way to do so is to practice your social skills, and to practice your social skills...

I’m not telling you that you need to give a chance to someone you aren’t attracted to, nor will I go on some ridiculous tirade on how “it’s LITERALLY illegal in 2021 to not be a 10/10 6’3” chad alpha male on his gorillionaire grindset etc. etc.” or God knows what. I’m simply asking that you put an effort into genuinely understanding the perspectives of those on the autism spectrum.

I do see the perspective. It sucks, it's not fair, and I feel deep empathy for anyone who is struggling to connect socially. If I could solve any problem with the snap of my fingers, it would probably be loneliness (which is why I've spent so much time writing about it). I see the Catch-22: the only way to improve your social skills is through practice, but because you need to improve your social skills, most people won't want to practice with you.

(Two REALLY easy rules for getting started, though: 1. Keep your hands to yourself. It's very creepy to touch people who don't want to be touched. 2. Don't make comments about her body or appearance. That violates social convention and is seen as creepy by most women. These are both very easy rules to follow if you actually care about not creeping out women.)

It sucks. It's not fair. But I see hope for men like CG, because they are learning and trying. By practicing their social skills, identifying and ceasing problematic behaviors, and developing other parts of themselves (because people are more likely to accept the bad/difficult/awkward when the good is better — see also: Girls Don't Like Guys BECAUSE They're Jerks. They Like Them DESPITE Being Jerks), there is definitely hope for improvement and meaningful connection.

But I'm not going to apologize for saying women should absolutely never be told or expected to endure discomfort or danger to appease or "affirm" someone else.

The sooner you get this idea out of your head, the sooner women will stop calling you creepy.

26 Comments

Liz

9/7/2021 02:25:50 pm

This is the article I didn't know I needed to read. THANK YOU. I'm so tired of men justifying their poor social skills/creep factor or acting like it's impossible to improve. Honestly, a lot of people have made "awkward" their identity and they don't want to improve. People who are on the spectrum deserve any kind of assistance that would be helpful to feeling ready and able to engage in normal social interactions - but it's not a free pass to act however you want without criticism.

Dan

9/12/2021 05:17:55 am

Liz, your comment is too cursory. Do you have tangible, specific wisdom to share with those on the spectrum as to how to meet your expectations?

9/12/2021 08:36:15 am

And, Liz, I am also so tired of people who complain about others who have poor social skills/creep factor, but are too intellectually lazy/incompetent to impart solid advice as to how to cure this social disease that you feel so negatively effected by.

By simply regurgitating the same complaint, while offering no solution, you contribute absolutely no value to the issue.

Eva Glasrud link

9/14/2021 03:37:05 pm

Dan,

Liz is allowed to share her opinion without writing out specific, actionable advice for people she doesn't know. And, honestly, the scope of human behavior is so wide, your best bet is to get feedback and criticism from people who personally know you.

I do not know you, but based on THIS interaction, I would say that you're coming across as kind of nasty and entitled. Women are allowed to have opinions without justifying them to you or using them to aid you.

Entitlement is an attitude/behavior that many women find creepy. Think about your behavior in other circumstances. Have you behaved similarly? That might be one reason for your social struggles.

It's one thing to show genuine interest in someone's opinion. "Oh, you think pizza is the best food? How come? What's the best pizza you've ever had?"

It's another thing to attack someone and demand justification. "OH GREAT. You love PIZZA?! WHY? Don't you know I'm lactose intolerant, so your feedback is USELESS to me! What about people who are gluten free? Do you hate them, too?!"

Jesse

10/31/2023 10:06:17 am

It's not just men that need to know read this. It's the women too. I dated a woman for years whom had a son that was in his 20's with hfa and he would do creepy stuff like this all the time. Whenever I would try to correct him on these horrible acts, his mom would jump to his defense like he was a defenseless child and I was coming at him with a belt or something... This is serious shit because after me and his mom broke up, I heard about him getting jumped for stalking young girls. He's 30 now so you can see the problem. Hopefully getting jumped taught him a lesson but honestly... IDC anymore. Just a word of advice to women with adult HFA sons... Stop making excuses for terrible and horrible behavior. It always leads to worse behaviors and actions.

10/31/2023 10:33:02 pm

Absolutely -- it's gross when parents do this, and it's only going to cause trouble and pain for the kid down the line.

Jadzia

9/10/2021 04:14:28 am

I have a friend on the autistic spectrum who was in this situation. He was also an alcoholic. He turned his life around after he stopped drinking. He then became friends with more women, which he had not done before and learned better how to talk to women. He struggled for a while to find a girlfriend but he got there in the end and is getting married next year.

If you have struggled to meet someone when you were young, that doesn't mean that you are condemned to eternal celibacy.

9/12/2021 08:59:25 am

Ava, is this book you promote by Cabane as good as you say? Will I, and others like the one's you complain about, find answers and guidance that you neglect to offer to redeem themselves in your eyes and become "normal?"

Your comments on the subject don't offer any solutions. Would you agree that there are just some women that do not have the ability to attract men? And if those women told you how they felt, would you ridicule them as "pathetic, helpless losers" as you have men? Or would you offer them empathy and try your best to give them guidance as to how to have social success with men?

Zane

9/14/2021 02:02:51 pm

Dan-
It is not Eva's or anyone else's responsibility to coach you or assist you in any way. You are not entitled to anyone's time or energy. I'm sure there are people who could coach you on this in a one on one setting for a fee. But there is no formula that applies to all awkward men that can be communicated in a blog post.

My advice? Work on your strengths, if you have any. Work out at least 6 times a week. Don't abuse alcohol or cannabis. Don't leave your house unless you are well groomed and well dressed. Be ambitious in your career. Get a hobby that doesn't involve staring at a screen. I'm sure you know guys that charm women despite being total boneheads or being awkward, simply because they play up their physique, taste, or success. A cool hobby (urban hiking, biking, beer brewing, gardening, cooking, volunteering, reading books at an adult level) will give you something to talk about. You are probably a decent enough guy that will have many romantic adventures in the future. Bonne chance.

9/14/2021 03:43:11 pm

Dan,

Zane's suggestions are all good ones. Developing your strengths will not only give you things to talk about and make you more interesting, but it will help you focus on the things you're good at, instead of the ways you feel shortchanged by society.

The advice that confidence is king is cliche, but true.

Women want men who feel empowered to change themselves and the world around them -- from an evolutionary perspective, committing to a helpless, defeated mate will lead to future death and starvation.

As for Cabane's book, I think it might be tremendously helpful for you. Granted, I read it as someone who doesn't have difficulty talking to people and with a master's in psychology but I found her advice to be actionable, sound, and wise.

In particular, I like how she discusses the complexity of human interactions, and instead of giving you a creepy, worthless set of if-then statements, she gives you strategies to become a warmer, more powerful person.

Why don't you give it a read and let me know if you found it helpful or not, and why? Maybe we can write a post about it.

10/25/2021 01:20:08 pm

Zane,

If you took a moment from ingratiating, you would see that you missed the point entirely. I never asserted entitlement, real or imagined, towards anyone here. I CHALLENGED them to offer more than some lazy, sophomoric derision of men (and women for that matter) who struggle miserably to be on the same level of acceptability as them. No one, not you, nor anyone, is entitled to not be challenged after posting about thinly-veiled bigotry.

If Eva were being sexually assaulted, or trapped in a burning car, I am sure that she would feel entitled to my time and energy helping her, even though I don't owe it to her to be her personal body guard. But despite being the narcissistic, self-important person that she is who detests ASD people like my little nephew, I WOULD help her because I don't want to see anyone in a position that they can't get out of on their own. It would be a matter of principle, because that "you're-on-your-own" attitude she takes is beneath me, and I want to be a better person than that.

Are you understanding me, Zane, or are you more concerned with pandering to Ava?

I do all of the things that you mentioned, with the exception of cannabis. I don't "abuse" it, as it doesn't interfere with my daily functions. In fact, that is my passion and career path right now.

Personally, I hope you, or Ava and Liz, never have a child that struggles with the ASD. You would probably treat them with resentment, impatience, and disdain.

Merci pour le conseil.

10/25/2021 08:02:23 pm

Den,

Literally everyone is saying that you're acting defensive, angry, and entitled. If that's not how you want to come across, perhaps it's time to examine your own words and behavior and look for areas of improvement. We have ALL pointed the out to you, so identifying them at this point really shouldn't be difficult, unless you're too self-righteous, insecure, and immature to take accountability for youw own growth.

If I were trapped in a burning car, I would not feel entitled for you to put your life at risk to save mine. That's literally the first thing you learn in emergency response training. If you couldn't safely do it, you obviously shouldn't do it. I've known that since I was like 11.

But the thing is, you are not trapped in a burning car or being raped. The fact that you don't recognize the difference between a life-or-death emergency and us teaching you shit for free (especially considering you have clearly not read any of the books and articles we've recommended, nor taken the time to do your own additional research) is indicative of a serious disconnect, either in your reasoning ability or social intelligence.

The way you are behaving right now is why so many women are calling you creepy. It's not your ASD. It's your gross, weird anger and entitlement. Not to mention intellectual laziness and illogical, over-emotional reasoning.

9/12/2021 09:22:04 am

"I see the Catch-22: the only way to improve your social skills is through practice, but because you need to improve your social skills, most people won't want to practice with you."

I'm glad that you recognize the Catch-22. Would you be one of few people who would help these guys/women practice their social skills, provided that they did not cross the two personal boundaries that you established? If not, and you are going to use the lazy "It's not my responsibility," excuse, then you have no credibility saying that you have empathy for these people and that you want to help them overcome their social struggles, because you refuse to help them engage in the practice they need to improve. Don't just regurgitate your discrepancies like a mindless drone, be an active, valuable part of the solution.

9/14/2021 03:50:48 pm

Having read this comment, I'm going to double down on my previous suggestion that you reflect on your entitled attitude. Women find this REALLY creepy, because what ELSE of mine do you think you're entitled to?

Like, Dan. It ISN'T my responsibility to teach you things. It's not Liz's responsibility to teach you things. If you were a piano teacher, don't you think it would be pretty presumptuous for me to demand free lessons from you?

The fact that someone might not have the time, patience, or expertise to teach you something doesn't mean they have no empathy. "Empathy" and "slave" aren't the same thing. Other people aren't slaves and don't owe you anything, just because you have a difference.

I have already provided a few suggestions for how to improve. One is a little hard -- ordering and reading a book requires time and effort. But surely you are willing to put in the time and effort to improve yourself that you would demand I put in to improving you!

The other two are REALLY easy.

1. Keep your hands to yourself. 95% of dudes women call "creepy" are called creepy because of unwanted touching -- even just of arms, hands, or knees.

2. Don't make comments about women's bodies. Find something else to compliment, or risk creeping her out and making her feel objectified. Keep in mind: the greatest compliment isn't something you read in a book. It's the sincere interest you show in what she has to say.

But for you, the main one is probably the entitlement thing. Reframe the way you think about that. Accept an understand that no one owes you anything. Find ways to recognize and disrupt the feeling and subsequent behaviors.

10/17/2021 08:21:31 pm

I will give it a read. And, yes, I would be open to writing a post about it. That was very nice of you to offer.

But I am not collaborating on anything with you that sounds like a diatribe from Lindy West or Amanda Marcotte, so the hackneyed, invariable words "entitlement" and "creepy," will not be used on any such post. Ironically, they are both entitled and creepy, yet they are never held to account.

Don't take my word for it. You would probably agree that this behavior meets the criteria for both of these terms. Before you go having a spaz attack, accusing me of making you feel like I am entitled to your time, just know that I thought you would find it interesting:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/lindy-west-as-a-fat-woman-my-body-is-lampooned-and-associated-with-moral-failure-1.2667067

They have thousands of supporters, so if I rebut something they say, and their thousands of supporters come to their defense, that doesn't make me automatically wrong, as Marcotte was in her slander of the Duke Lacrosse players. How many millions of Germans thought Hitler was a good man, but wasn't? So two people telling me I am "angry" and "entitled" doesn't automatically make me so. Again, challenging you to be more insightful and elaborate isn't asserting entitlement, it's a challenge for you to contribute more to something you're whining about. You can accept or decline, it's your choice.

"If you were a piano teacher, don't you think it would be pretty presumptuous for me to demand free lessons from you?"

No, but if I were a piano teacher who created my own website with the presence of mind that it is a public forum, incessantly whined about how all of the world's struggling piano players are creepy for playing badly, and mocked them for not being able to naturally play the piano well, then I would deserve to be told by those same struggling piano players to take the time to post accessible content to improve their playing skills, or stfu about how awful people bad piano players are. Because, you know, that piano teacher is being obnoxious, and people have a right to call people out who are being obnoxious.

Like, Eva. You are really bad at analogies.

Your quickness to accuse people of entitlement makes me think you had a negative experience at some point. If so, I really am sorry that happened. I am talking to someone who is helping me combat something I experienced when I was young, but I am not going to go around demonizing people for wanting to experience what neurotypicals enjoy. I know that would be an asshole move, my own negative experience notwithstanding.

Richard

5/26/2023 01:40:11 am

"If you were a piano teacher, don't you think it would be pretty presumptuous for me to demand free lessons from you?"

Learning to play a piano is optional. Learning how to interact with your fellow human beings and trying not to die of loneliness and/or being taken advantage of is another thing entirely. But how would a natural-born extrovert who takes her social skills for granted even understand anyway?

5/26/2023 09:19:14 am

Learning to play a piano is optional.

Learning how to interact with your fellow human beings and trying not to die of loneliness and/or being taken advantage of is YOUR responsibility, not mine. Part of being an adult is taking accountability for your own actions and taking responsibility for your own learning.

For you, what might make sense is to try being upfront about your... introversion? Autism? Let's call it autism, for the sake of rhetoric.

You are autistic. You are aware that you have social differences. You are aware that some people have found these differences creepy and off-putting. And now you are in a situation where you are meeting new people. I dunno -- let's say you've joined a frisbee league.

When you introduce yourself, tell your teammates, "I'm Richard, I'm a handler, and I'm super excited to be here! But so you know, I'm on the spectrum, so if there's something I do that makes you uncomfortable, just let me know! It's not on purpose!"

This tells me that social differences I notice in you might not be because you're a sociopathic creep who doesn't care how I feel -- but, rather, that you have a difference that makes it hard for you to know how I feel. And there's a big difference there. (This goes back to the whole mind reading thing. I'm not a mind reader.)

AND it opens the door for me giving you feedback about how best to interact with me. "Richard, that was an awesome huck! ... but, would you mind stepping back just a little bit? You're standing a little close right now."

And now I can have future interactions with you that are more comfortable for both of us, instead of having to just avoid you because you always stand too close to me and I don't know why but it makes me uncomfortable.

5/26/2023 09:21:02 am

And, just so you know, I am not an extrovert at ALL. People mistake me for one, but I'm very much an introvert.

9/16/2021 09:25:21 pm

"It's one thing to show genuine interest in someone's opinion. 'Oh, you think pizza is the best food? How come? What's the best pizza you've ever had?'"

It's another thing to attack someone and demand justification. 'OH GREAT. You love PIZZA?! WHY? Don't you know I'm lactose intolerant, so your feedback is USELESS to me! What about people who are gluten free? Do you hate them, too?!"

That is a very interesting analogy, which I appreciate, but it just doesn't fit. I didn't "attack" Liz, I gave my opinion in the same tone and tenor that Liz gave in her original comment. You can't prove that she gave her "opinion," and that my comment was an "attack" any more than I can prove that I gave my "opinion," and that her comment was an "attack" on people with social struggles.

And how do you objectively qualify my reply to her as an "attack?" Did I curse at her? Did I call her names (intellectually lazy/incompetent were the appropriate adjectives)? Did I use language that was sexist/misogynistic? Did I threaten her? Do you see even an exclamation mark anywhere in my reply?

For someone who is annoyed by victimhood culture, you're acting like a victim.

My reply was not an "attack," it was a CHALLENGE. I challenged her to put forth more of an effort to effectively contribute to an issue that bothers her. Otherwise, she is just simply whining. A whiner is someone who complains, but is too lazy to think of, or even offer, good solutions. You yourself have responded to people with the same sentiment.

I didn't imply that she should not be allowed to make a comment, I challenged her to provide more insight into the issue with detailed information, so that just maybe someone who has the social issues she is whining about can remember her sage wisdom and use that as valuable information to improve social interactions. If you think that that is unreasonable or "entitled," then I don't know what to say for you.

I don't know what people are/aren't entitled to, exactly. But I do know that everyone (EVERYONE) is entitled to challenge someone who makes a short-winded complaint whilst offering no contribution to the problem they're complaining about. Liz is not entitled to comment on a public forum without facing a challenge, intellectually. That does not make for diverse discussion, that makes for an echo chamber. Strong, intelligent women with a sense of intellectual curiosity and who are so concerned about this issue (as you are) should be able to at least meet that challenge.

9/17/2021 11:24:58 am

Dan, it really seems like you're missing the point.

When Liz made her comment, she did it in a friendly and general way that was not directed at you. She was expressing agreement with the original post.

Your reply to her came across as VERY entitled, and angry, and it was directed at her.

"I am also so tired of people who complain about others who have poor social skills/creep factor, but are too intellectually lazy/incompetent to impart solid advice as to how to cure this social disease that you feel so negatively effected by."

The purpose of her post was to agree with me and share a small bit of her own experience, not to educate you. You called her lazy and incompetent for not giving specific, actionable advice to someone she's never met.

No one's trying to "prove" that anyone did anything. It would be stupid to try to "prove" your mood and intent when you wrote your comment. However, what I can say is that at least two people who have seen your comment took the time to say it came across as very angry and entitled. Maybe instead of demanding from us that we PROVE your intention, you should think about your on behavior and word choices and reflect upon why outsiders would find it entitled and creepy.

I'm not acting like a victim, Dan. I'm trying to help you recognize what you might be doing wrong so you can fix it -- but in order to fix it, you have to want to fix it. You have to be open to the criticism you are so bitterly demanding.

Entitlement is definitely an issue for you. But I think defensiveness is, too. I don't know what about you would cause you to be so defensive, so this is another thing you can think about on your own. Why are you so quick to get defensive, even when people are not even talking to you -- or are trying to help you?

Bob

9/30/2021 04:18:29 am

But they’re less creepy when they’re deemed attractive, you’re very shallow

5/26/2023 09:12:15 am

When attraction is mutual, then flirting is more likely to be reciprocated.

That's not "shallow." It's just true. Women are not passive recipients of male action. We are part of the INTERaction, so the "exact same behavior" is NOT "exactly the same" when the woman is not interested in the man.

5/26/2023 01:52:35 am

"I don't give a shit whether someone "means me absolutely no harm but is socially inept." I'm not a magical, miracle, mind reading fortune teller. All I have to go on, to decide if I am safe or not, if your behavior. If YOU are acting creepy, YOU are the problem, not me.

Also, on the topic of male entitlement: it's not my job to educate and rehabilitate someone who is socially inept. You're not entitled to my affection or attention, just because you're on the spectrum. It's not women's job to do the emotional labor of educating someone they don't know and don't feel comfortable around."

Meanwhile in the "Girls don't like guys because they are jerks" article:

Pretty much 80% of the time you think someone is being a "jerk," what's actually going on is they have no idea what they're doing bothers you. Which is why it is important for all of us to use our big boy and big girl words.

For example, as I wrote in For the Love of GOD, STOP Asking People If They're Okay, and again in Unless the Next Words Out of Your Mouth Are Going to be, "Can I Help ___?" Do NOT Tell Me I "Look Tired", there are certain behaviors that bother me.

However, I don't get mad when people don't magically read my mind. Instead, I just tell them, "I'm not mad, but that bothered me, so can you not do it again?"

So it's okay for some guys to be jerks as long as you can explain to them what they did wrong, but if you are an aspie it's their fault for not being a telepath and should shame them?

With how much you contract your own advice across all your articles you are either a total hypocrite or are just out to make people on the spectrum feel like shit for no other reason than for kicks.

QA spellcheck

5/26/2023 01:53:47 am

but if THEY are an aspie

5/26/2023 09:09:38 am

In the first example, I said that men don't have a right to make women uncomfortable, even if they're neurodivergent. Women do not have a societal or personal obligation to educate and rehabilitate men.

In the second example, I said that it is important not to assume people can read your mind, so if you care about a relationship, it is important to tell people what bothers you, instead of letting it stew and being resentful about it.

The difference is choice. Women are not obligated to provide feedback to men, but if we WANT to, then obviously we should. This is true whether or not the man is an aspie. If I WANT to tell someone they need to give me more personal space and I feel safe and comfortable doing so, then I should. If I don't feel safe communicating this, then I have every right to leave the situation and avoid future encounters with the person.

Hopefully you understand this, but I'm happy to explain it another way if it's still not clicking.

The difference is choice.

curious

6/20/2023 03:36:18 pm

You're just evil, you know that, right? Autistic people will make people uncomfortable, whether you like or not, no matter how hard they try not to; not just concerning romantic or sexual endeavours either. They will sometimes establish eye contact for too long, sometimes not at all. Some will be non-verbal, or very sensitive to certain stimuli, so they'll cry in public out of frustration (which WILL make some people uncomfortable). Around 33% of them have intellectual disabilities along with social difficulties, which will also cause some discomfort. The difference is; it's not their fault. They can't help it. Many of them work on their problems starting from friggin pre-school if they were diagnosed early (so they're not being lazy like you've said, which can't be said about you).

And you're telling us that they have a problem with being 'human' (serious wtf, you're the one who should consider their own humanity), because they sometimes make people uncomfortable without even realizing it (this was your comment: "If you think (and I'm not accusing YOU, specifically, I'm speaking generally of the neurodivergent community) that just because you have a difference, you have a right to make women uncomfortable, you ARE creepy. You don't need to work on your social skills. You need to work on your humanity").

Absolutely despicable. At least when they don't communicate their feelings in an appropriate way, they're unintentional; unlike you who expect people to read your mind instead, because apparently it's too difficult to communicate what you feel.

Just because you're on the spectrum or neurodivergent, doesn't mean you have a right to be creepy.

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