STOP Equating "Baby, It's Cold Outside" With Obscene Rap Lyrics.

12/14/2018

The difference is consent.

It's Christmas -- so let the "annual debate" about Baby, It's Cold Outside commence.

On the one side, critics argue that consent is sexy (which it totally is -- asking for permission doesn't "kill the mood," it just establishes clearly that the woman does or does not want to do something), and the guy in that song is super inappropriate (which he totally is -- I think a guy has the right to ask for something once, but if the woman says no, you stop trying to force her).

On the other side, people say that it's "just words" (which it is -- I'm all for freedom of speech, and would rather date someone who's empirically correct than politically correct) and that other stuff they play on the radio -- specifically, misogynistic and lewd rap lyrics -- are much worse.

This last argument is the one I can't really get on-board with, because I feel like if that's your opinion, you're missing the point.

People don't dislike Baby, It's Cold Outside because it's lewd -- they dislike it because the woman's consent and agency is clearly being ignored.

Do I think it's totally disgusting when Nicki Minaj or some other trashy rapper raps about eating ass? Absolutely.

But... grown adults can consent to whatever gross, disease-spreading deviancies they want. (Contrary to what some feminists seem to think, adult women can give consent.)

Whether we should play such songs on the radio, let children listen to such lyrics, whether it promotes unhealthy attitudes about sexuality or creates a toxic culture for certain groups... that's a different issue from whether a man should respect a woman's no.

These are all valid questions. Nevertheless, the issue isn't sex. It's consent.

You all know I have a thick skin. (See also: The Orgasm Gap is Real -- But Don't Blame It On the Patriarchy; How NOT To Be The Girl From 'Cat Person'; Why I Dressed As Microaggressions for Halloween; When Did Colleges Become Preschools?; and so many more.)

But even I hate Baby, It's Cold Outside. I'm not going to boycott any radio station that plays it or sign any petitions. But I will walk out on you if you choose to sing this song at karaoke. I will veto you if you try to add it to a playlist. And I may leave a snarky comment if I see you post something like this on Facebook.

Though something like this, I could get behind:

Because the way the man acts in that song is just atrocious.

Some people argue that culturally, historically, it meant something different, because "a woman had to pretend to resist" for cultural and historical reasons. Sure. I mean, I once wrote in Quillette that we'd literally have to rename every building on every campus if we judged historical figures by modern standards.

But even if that's true, and the woman was just pretending to say no... which -- STILL. SO GROSS. In the (I guess now ironic?) words of Louis C.K., "I'm not gonna rape you on the off-chance that you're into that shit!"

Whatever its historic origins, the song still reminds me of more modern dudes than I can even remember. Dudes I have had to repeatedly say the same thing over and over to. Dudes I've had to shout at, scream at, shove -- even threaten with weapons -- because they wouldn't listen to me when I said, "No."

"Stop following me."

"I don't want you to walk me back to my apartment."

"I don't want to kiss you."

(Fun hint: if you had to grab her by the back of the head and force her, or if you had to surprise her, it wasn't a consensual kiss. But here's how to know exactly when and when not to kiss a girl.)

Even if you think the woman is just being coy when she rejects your advances, you basically have a moral obligation to ignore her passive aggression and take what she says at face value.

Especially considering the alternative could be jail time.

If for some reason, you actually like the song for its musicality (or lack thereof), there are some awesome alternatives you can check out this year.

1. Lydia Liza & Josiah Lemanski's cover, Baby, It's Cold Outside (consent).

2. Baby, Just GO Outside, by The Holderness Family.

3. Christmas Sweatz, by Rhett & Link.

And, of course, coming soon, MY original Christmas song:

4. Make 'Em All Believe.

I'm working on recording it. For now, check out this (flawed, but still hopefully sort of fun) version I played at an open mic last week. The lyrics are available at If You Want to Make Someone Creative, Tie A Hand Behind Their Back.

Merry Christmas, ya filthy animals.

***

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13 Comments

Anon

12/19/2018 10:12:14 pm

I think it's clear from the context of the song that the woman actually wants to stay. Sometimes people do that. For example if a woman says "Stop I want to go" or "BACK OFF," or "leave me alone I don't like you" I'm pretty sure most men would back off. In the song she seems to be putting on a superficial front because she wants to be seen as a good girl in pre 1960s patriarchal America. Ramzpaul has a great youtube video on this.

Also if you care about consent there are rap songs that celebrate anal rape. People are not just pointing out that rap songs are worse because they are more lewd. There are lots of rap songs promoting violence against women and rape. The real reason Baby it's cold outside is attacked is because it's white. The reason rap songs are tolerated is because they are black. Sort of how you can find feminists defending clitoris removal if it's done by brown muslims or black Africans.

Also most people understand consent just fine. They don't need feminist autists and their castrated lap dogs to teach them that asking your wife to have sex even though she is tired is sexual assault.

Eva Glasrud link

12/31/2018 09:49:45 am

"Clear from context" doesn't really cut it. Sounds a bit like, "Your eyes said yes." Like Louis C.K. said, "I'm not not going to rape . you on the off-chance you're into that shit!"

I don't really listen to rap, so I can't really argue with your second point. If that's true, that's disgusting. But I do agree that it's racist and gross when so-called progressives give in to the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

thomas sweeney

5/12/2020 05:37:30 am

STOP Equating "Baby, It's Cold Outside" With Obscene Rap Lyrics
The difference is consent.

How can you say i don't listen to that kind of music if you are going to use that title? So you admit you are writing on a subject that you don't know at all? I am amazed that you can expect anyone to respect your opinion when you title a blog and then say that you have no idea what is said in rap because you don't listen to it.

5/12/2020 01:11:09 pm

I don't listen to gross rap shit with regularity. I haven't memorized every lyric of every song. I've heard enough of the music in question and seen enough people equate rap with Baby It's Cold Outside that it's a very obvious tie-in.

Your argument is flimsy and ridiculous, but I appreciate you taking the time to comment. It's good for SEO. :)

Zeph

1/3/2019 09:50:47 pm

Hi, Eva - happy new year!

First off, I've heard that this song is newly controversial, but only after reading your post did it look more serioiusly into it (watching some performances, reading the lyrics, and thinking about it). I had no position either way until just now.

>> Whatever its historic origins, the song still reminds me of more modern dudes than I can even remember. Dudes I have had to repeatedly say the same thing over and over to. Dudes I've had to shout at, scream at, shove -- even threaten with weapons -- because they wouldn't listen to me when I said, "No."

Hmm. That sounds really bad, and I'm sorry you have had to deal with that.

Those experiences doesn't really sound like the tone or lyrics of the song, tho. I know that you are hardly a knee-jerk political correctness advocate, so let's take a second look, OK?

The female's reasons are predominantly about societal and familial expectations; but she does NOT endorse those expectations herself in the lyrics, just cites them as outside pressures she feels. She never says "*I* want to go" or "*I* don't want to stay" or any analog. Mostly she states why she "should", "must", or "ought to" go, intermixed with signals that she would actually rather stay and that she finds his behavior positive and attractive. She's the one suggesting (half) a drink (probably alcoholic, as he "pours" it). Unlike the situations you reference, she never asks him to stop trying to persuade her or seems to want him to leave her alone She certainly doesn't have to threaten him with a weapon to get him to stop! It's miles away from that in tone and content.

His persuasion seems tacky and dated at times (to me), but he offers no force or coercion and there is no sign of his using a power differential against her. He's verbally trying to persuade her to do what she (and he) wants rather than what society expects. She's treated as a being able to make that decision, not as somebody who has to be coddled because she can't decide for herself (in either direction); instead the decision is clearly up to her.

So we have two groups of people. One group interprets this as a fun and flirty interaction and enjoys the song. It's not in tune with today's terminology (when she says "the answer is no" we hear echoes of "no means no" => autopilot back away without question today, which was not a coded phrase back then), but people have no trouble understanding and translating the intent.

Another group wants to stop it being performed and listened to, because they personally have negative associations; the song "reminds them of" some kind of *unwanted* harassment quite different than the actual lyrics and normal interpretation of this song, and thus upsets them. They don't want anybody to hear it any more; they believe that their own associations or interpretations trump everybody else's (why would that be?).

I'm somewhat surprised to find your take closer to the second group. I get that your negative experiences with some dudes who were creeping on you has an emotional association, but often you can reason beyond that emotional association. Perhaps you can explain your reasoning more fully.

Thanks for the alternate lyric video links, but I wonder if you perceived the gentle mockery in the second one? (Serving perhaps in the Heyoka role). The first video also kind of laid it on heavily, but I can't tell if it's dead serious PC or also slightly poking fun. Alas, it has come to that.

And good to see you performing for an audience!

1/3/2019 09:58:27 pm

Typos in my post, first para:

"only after reading your post did it look more serioiusly into it"

should have read

"only after reading your post did I look more seriously into it"

1/5/2019 12:31:15 pm

I showed this discussion with some friends (mostly female, and hardly traditional). Thought I'd share some reactions.

One movie buff pointed out that in the original movie rendition, it was song twice, switching genders. Does it sound just as non-consensual when the genders are reversed? (I haven't seen the movie). Since it's just verbal persuasion (which women are at least as competent at as men) and not based on upper body strength, I presume so. (I get that for you his persistence is what bugged you, even tho she shows zero sign of wanting him to stop)

The interesting thing is that the women told me they found the women's role in the alternate lyrics videos to be "weak" compared to the original. In the original, it's clear that it's the woman's decision and she seems empowered to agree or not with the man's obvious desires; in the end she agrees because she wants it too (overcoming fear of slut shaming). The real struggles is less between the couple, than between the woman and social expectations and she winds up following her own inclinations.

But in the other videos, she's treated like a doll who can't be trusted to express her agency without constant and repetitive male encouragement. In those versions, the males must completely avoid expressing any iota of their own desire for her to stay, and constantly remind her of her right to leave. They model that women do not have the power to hear a man's genuine interest, and then make their own decision - they are safe only if men treat them as delicate things. This is from feminist women.

One also noted that even if she had been tempted to stay, the complete lack of expressed interest from the man in the first alternate lyric would have put them off; my friend says she wants to know what the man is really feeling as part of her decision, and she doesn't want him to be so self-abnegating and deferential; she wants a man to care about her feelings too, but not by completely erasing his own passions.

Upon reflection, I see their points. The second video is mostly a gentle mockery, but the second seems like a very self-conscious attempt to model "ideal male behavior" which overshoots so far as to provide a bad model of empowered human communication.

It would be interesting to find or create lyrics which update the dated original lyrics, but which express the sentiments of the original. That is: she is caught between social pressures and her own desires, and he is (more respectfully) expressing his own desires along with ratifying that it's her decision (without treating her like she needs him to constantly remind her). That is, as two empowered people, respecting each other's autonomy while expressing their own desires, and then collaborating as equals on the decision making (ulitmately hers). I just made it sound like an intellectual exercise, sorry; but the underlying dynamics I described could be translated into less formal lyrics. If this succeeded, you could switch roles (ie: which gender sings which part) without a glitch.

Eva Glasrud

1/18/2019 11:26:06 am

>> "Those experiences doesn't really sound like the tone or lyrics of the song, tho."

It really is, though. They try to be all cute and flirty and stuff, even though what they're actually trying to get you to do is what you just told them three, four, or five times you don't want them to do. That's exactly what I find gross about it. It's too real.

And the way she behaves... I mean, you can project all the meaning you want onto it. "She's saying no, but she really means yes" is still a recipe for disaster. It's really not up to guys to infer what a woman REALLY means when she says no -- or, in the words of Louis C.K., 'I'm not gonna rape you on the off chance you're into that shit."

Also worth noting: most girls are not as direct as I am. Whether because they were socialized to be nice and polite (http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/need-proof-that-women-are-taught-to-be-nice-even-when-theyre-in-danger-prepare-to-be-horrified), or they're worried about hurting the guy's feelings, or technology stunted their communication skills (http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/todays-women-feel-less-control-over-their-bodies-than-their-grandmas-did-because-of-smartphones), or they're just horrible at saying no (http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/why-most-people-suck-at-saying-no-and-how-you-can-start-improving-today), a lot of women STILL TODAY would communicate just like the woman in the song.

And it's gross to me that people think it's for them to infer what the woman really means. We all know someone who knows someone who claims he didn't put a move on a girl because he thought she didn't want him to, and then in the morning she was like, "Why didn't you put a move on me?" But... I'd rather have that happen then have someone accuse me of coercing them into sexual contact.

>> "His persuasion seems tacky and dated at times (to me), but he offers no force or coercion and there is no sign of his using a power differential against her. He's verbally trying to persuade her to do what she (and he) wants rather than what society expects. She's treated as a being able to make that decision, not as somebody who has to be coddled because she can't decide for herself (in either direction); instead the decision is clearly up to her."

Same thing, though. It's not up to him to decide if she's saying no because it's what she thinks society expects, even though it's what she "really wants." This kind of persistent, never-ending badgering is something that a lot of women face, and that often results in unwanted, not very consensual, sex.

I never said the song should be banned. I just said, I hate the song, and I will walk out of an establishment that is playing it, because it is disgusting. And that the difference between this song and the gross rap shit people compare it to is that you don't hear explicit rap music at every coffee shop, restaurant, and store you visit from November until New Years.

1/18/2019 11:29:58 am

As for the criticisms of the video, I would remind you that the only way to perform this the way it should play out would be for the song to literally be like 20 seconds long.

"I really can't stay."
"That's fine."
"I had such a good time, and I hope I can see you again soon. Like TOMORROW."
"Yes! That would be awesome! I can't wait!"
"Okay, walk me to my car!"
*walks her to her car*
"Goodnight!!!!" *big, awesome, and CONSENSUAL hug*

The reason it seems like she needs endless encouragement is because the original song goes on endlessly. It would be hard for a song to preserve the musicality of the original without endlessness.

Sarah R

1/15/2019 03:59:16 pm

Sorry but when society feels they can call me a hoe or a bitch and males feel they can equate me to an object like some women in a rap video worshipping her king.

Yah give your head a shake rap has pushed feminism back decades. These double standards only enforce patriarchal attitudes as well.

Lost all my respect right there. This is just like r Kelly v drake. And clearly u think it's okay when drake does it metaphorically speaking so long as r Kelly does not, simply because you, 'like' drake.

1/18/2019 10:28:00 am

I don't listen to that kind of music, because I find it disgusting. File it under Sorry, But No. Not Every Part of Every Culture Deserves My Respect (http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/sorry-but-no-not-every-part-of-every-culture-deserves-my-respect).

The good news is, this kind of music isn't normally played at every given Starbucks, Macy's, holiday boutique, etc. etc. etc. It's pretty easy to avoid it if I want to, since it's considered explicit and isn't played in the kinds of places I normally go.

I don't really know anything about Drake, except that lots of teenagers seem to be listening to him/them right now? So I can't speculate on that.

Brian Wasserman

12/11/2019 02:55:03 pm

I remember hearing something about this on NPR. People who knew the songwriter Frank Loesser were talking about how he was very ahead of his time in terms of feminism in his songwriting, and other examples of this were given of this, though I don't remember them. I really do think that "Baby, it's cold outside" is a feminist song in the way it shows how a woman had to pretend not to be interested because of the morals of the time, which you did briefly mention. It seem like, based on the people interviewed who knew Loesser that the song was meant to show how rediculous it was that woman had to act like this, which would actually make the song feminist. But I would probably not think that without the context of Loesser's songwriting career as a whole, and hearing what people who personally knew him thought that he was trying to do with the song.

12/11/2019 03:20:33 pm

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Mine just happens to be that of someone who has basically had this song quoted at her verbatim -- forcing me to eventually have to scream "NO" and "BACK THE FUCK OFF" and "STOP TOUCHING ME" at dudes who act like the guy in this song.

My experience is.. pretty universal among women (see also: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/last-night-i-screamed-no-in-a-guys-face-because-he-wouldnt-stop-trying-to-kiss-me-would-you-do-that). I don't think I know a single woman this hasn't happened to, and it is disgusting behavior.

The worst is when a teenager or young adult looks at me with tears in her eyes and says, "The first time I had sex... it technically wasn't consensual."

Makes it hard to appreciate the humor, I guess.

If the point of the song is to make the societal expectation look ridiculous, I'm not sure he successfully made that point. It sounds cute, not critical or subversive. If I were his songwriting partner, I'd let him know he needed to rework the lyrics a little if he was actually trying to reject a societal norm.

You know I'm not a social justice warrior -- but this song still gives me the creeps.

Another idea for a remake that would be good is one that emphasizes women using their big girl words in situations like these. It could be a useful instructional tool... especially considering that today's young women feel less control over their bodies than their grandmothers did (http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/todays-women-feel-less-control-over-their-bodies-than-their-grandmas-did-because-of-smartphones).

STOP Equating "Baby, It's Cold Outside" With Obscene Rap Lyrics.

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